390 thoughts on “A Unique Look at the Boat People ‘Problem’ in Australia”
Thanks for the perspective!
Seconded by me. Great graphics & stats.
Wonder how we compare to Lebanon and Jordan and Turkey considering the Syrian refugees fleeing that lands “civil” war?
It would be interesting to see what the actual rate of acceptance vs. rejection is. It’s all good and well to say that France has 48,000 odd applications for Asylum with a detention time of less than 2 weeks but if 45,000 of those applications are rejected in less than 2 weeks you would need to question the methods used in processing.
Would you prefer a half assed approach rushing through applications to save time or would you prefer to wait 200 days knowing that your application was given the best chance to succeed on its merits.
If I was to guess I would say those 8 days are mostly medical assessment and basic admin (taking details, deciding on which community they will be transferred to etc). After that they would be free to do what they please but would have to maintain regular contact with a case officer. The time inside the detention center would have very little to do with the end outcome of their claim, if they are needed after being released they can be found with fairly little cost or effort.
I haven’t done any research to see if this is what they do but it would be the logical/humane/cost effective process to use.
That’s kind of what I was hinting at. Comparing the time in detention between countries like France and Australia is a little unfair without providing the details on what this time actually includes.
I believe you are right in saying that the 2 weeks would be mainly medical and admin duties and from a (very brief) Google search it seems that once an application is made in France the seeker is granted a visa from between 3-6 months in which I’m assuming further investigation is done (I could be wrong). Whereas the 200 + days in Australian detention would include such investigation before a visa is granted.
The problem with allowing Asylum seekers to be integrated into the general population before a decision is made is that it allows them to build a connection with a life that they might have to give away within a few months.
Could you imagine what it would be like to be living within a community, starting to make friends or be with family then have the Immigration department reject your application. The hope you had been giving is torn away and it now becomes vastly more difficult to remove people without disrupting whole communities.
“The problem with allowing Asylum seekers to be integrated into the general population before a decision is made is that it allows them to build a connection with a life that they might have to give away within a few months.”
Fair point. But I would say that is easily the lesser of 2 evils considering the serious issues with the detention centers.
I feel that level of trauma inflicted by being removed from a community you have spent time in has to be less than the trauma inflicted on people in indefinite detention. I would dig up some of the reports on the effects on the mental health of people in the centers if it wasn’t so late.
Also with an acceptance rate of 90+% for Asylum seekers who arrive by boat the proportion of people traumatized would be significantly reduced. The 10% of applicants that do get rejected would also have greater access to legal help and other services that may then increase the chance of them being accepted or help them deal with any trauma they suffer.
Unfortunately its a system where there is no real way around causing trauma on some level (unless we just accept all applicants which I can’t see happening politically). The main focus should be reducing the amount of trauma and helping the people who suffer as much as we can.
Exactly what I would have said, Matt, cheers.
Not to mention that there is community within a detention centre, so should their application be rejected they also have to leave that community and support system they have built. It just comes with added stress, mental health deterioration, inability to acclimatise to Australian culture, be able to walk down a street, go to the beach, a park….volunteer work etc etc…
I may have misunderstood you Shoei. But are you saying that that is the reasoning behind the government wanting to turn the boats back? That its because they empathise with the building a connection and then have that taken away from you. I gueuss my argument to that is that that is just manipulated the publics opinion. All the immigrants shown in the chart above come to our country with money to spend and they are also from more westernised country (apart from Malaysia). The government could also spend less money on simply sending officials to the camps and sus out who the genuine people are and who are not if the other problem is that they are not genuine. All of their reasoning is immature and appaling.
where do these stats come from .. and what ratios are used .. this is a pile of shit
look at the reference list at the bottom of the info-graphic for a handy hint of where these stats came from
If you would like the 2012 figures from UNHCR then you can read them here:
I would rather not risk putting someone who has already survived something far worse than I can even imagine being imprisoned and further traumatised in their ‘new home’. Hire more people to do the processing if necessary but living people in detention facilities for over 6months is unacceptable in this Internet era, where we make a phone call or a few phone calls and verify almost anything.
Yes! We can even train and employee refugees to do the processing so they won’t tek owr jerbs! As well as employing Aussie workers doing this and more. Why look on these humans as economic burdens when they could better be viewed as providing economic opportunities (for us & them) instead?
People need to be properly assessed so the country can have the best outcome in managing new arrivals. It is so much more then just accepting people there must be follow up plans to allow for looking after people in a holistic manner .One of the biggest issues we face is mental health problems and lack of affordable housing We have a housing crisis as it is so the government needs to do some hard yards on the basic problems .. So I guess there should be an honest dialogue opened up that is going to address concerns that many people have at the moment.The government is creating a lot of problems themselves with their lack of transparency and hidden agenda.They really need to get their act together and take a grown ups approach by working together on this issue . The majority of people seeking asylum probably are genuinely only looking for a safer and better place to bring up their families. People need a timely response to the application whether positive or negative and a process that is not so ridiculously drawn out. Proper assessments are necessary to stop the ones that have other reasons.
i gota side with the bogans on this one 55grand to process an asylum seeker is pure ridiculousness, but its ok i have a solution…….. let them in, in a reasonable time instead of when its politically convenient. even if the bogans are 100% right and they all join the welfare ques (not likely) that would still be about 35 grand a year cheaper per person.
That’s a good point!
i should clarify befor someone points it out i dont mean let them all in screening is still very important but i do thinking we could aim for 10 days to detain them and save enough money to fund the Australian space program
This blog has no relevance. I notice that about five people comment on it. And these five people are all who agree with each other. So what is it preaching to but the converted? Give it up to global warming and f*** this blog, clearly none of those who we wish would give a shit can give a shit. http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn12992-computer-servers-as-bad-for-climate-as-suvs.html
You don’t see the enraged incoherent defamer spam we trash each day 🙂
Also this blog has a Twitter following far larger than the number who actually post. And we can post and repost the truth in a convenient form every time the bogots start their nonsense.
Now I think you and New Scientist agree that a server powered by renewables would be sustainable? And fewer racists and bigots spewing their toxic gases has to be good for the planet?
It’s just that it seems to have run out of steam. There once were abundant posts. Now… well, there are only a handful ever. I reckon you should post some of the trash you normally can. It might put a few things in perspective. Not to mention that it could only serve to make bigots look even worse.
We do our best. We all have lives, unlike the enemy, and mortgages etc to feed. We usually get two out a week, sometimes more.
We also have an abundance of material, but more is always welcome.
So what is the population of the nations compared and how many of those are directly involved and employed in the process of asylum and immigration? I ask because there’s no comparative data to contrast both sides of the argument while it’s insinuating to be unbiased. An academic would probably fail this kind of analysis if part of the marking rubric is on the impartiality of data.
Good point Jacky. Can’t speak for the amount of people involved in the application process, but asylum seekers compared to country population is something like: USA-0.01%, France-0.075, Germany-0.05, Sweden-0.32, Malaysia-0.001, Canada-0.067, Aus-0.035
And, while yes, Australia isn’t being “swamped” America hardly is either, but it’s obviously trying to imply that which makes me question the bias of the rest of the information presented.
The US has a population of 314 million on a land mass about the size of Australia and takes thousands of irregular arrivals crossing the Mexican border every year in addition to thousands of asylum seekers it takes.
Puts Australia to shame.
I get your point, however, as an Aussie living in the US I see it affecting this country tremendously…. for the worse. Economically, they are suffering, but also importantly, they are slowly changing the culture…I live in California in a town where numbers are approaching 50% Hispanic in the population. How long before there are little Mexicos scattered throughout and this country loses itself…
I don’t know what you are complaining about hhhmmmm – I wish I had such easy access to authentic Mexican cuisine
hhmmmmm-what exactly are you scared of? How exactly is your town changing, beyond population type?
It’s like those Aussie alarmists who say “If we become less than 75% white….just imagine what will happen?”
And the answer, of course, is nothing. America recently had a demographic change, with the white population being less than 50%…..and everything continues on as usual.
JM I’m trying hard not to be or sound racist here, maybe if I mention I am married to a Puerto Rican it may help that, but what I meant is simply that ….being an immigrant myself I think when someone chooses to move to a new country they want to live there cause they like IG right and what to integrate into it and not entirely lose themselves but adapt somewhat to be a part of that culture. If they can that’s great. I did. I am still fiercely Aussie and proud of it but I don’t go flying my flag around everywhere and having huge Australia day parades or starting Aussie shops everywhere…the problem in alot of towns I’ve seen around cali is that that is happening… they don’t really want to live like Americans they want to bring Mexico here and fade out everything else. One town I worked inhad a main street nearly full of Hispanic run, Spanish only speaking restaurants and stores. I went in one and could not even communicate enough to get prices or descriptions of product in there!! Wouldn’t that bug you? I’m all for multiculture for sure but not at the expense of another’s. I do love Mexican food though Matt and taco bell will be one I miss for sure if I ever get the chance to move back home to Oz. BUT…I love American food and stores too and would hate to see them dissapear cause Mexicans would rather go to theirs and just not care to learn English or fit in to their new country…that’s all. 🙂
I bet the food you got in those Hispanic restaurants was a damn sight better than the fast food lethal fat content shite with which America has infested the world for the past 40 years.
Taco Bell is NOT Mexican – it is TexMex which is like saying real Neapolitan spaghetti eaten in Naples is like Heinz tinned spaghetti.
“I’m trying hard not to be or sound racist here, maybe if I mention I am married to a Puerto Rican it may help that”
Yep, that doesn’t help. One can like an individual of one race, and still be deeply racist. Hitler had Asian and muslim friends-still a racist dick bag though.
“I am still fiercely Aussie and proud of it but I don’t go flying my flag around everywhere ”
Why not? You say you are a proud Aussie, but you’re ashamed of our flag now?
“having huge Australia day”
Why not? Is being Australian not something to celebrate?
“starting Aussie shops everywhere”
Wati, this is a problem? Migrants coming in to new countries and creating businesses which in turn create jobs, and create taxes is something you oppose?
How DARE they improve the economy!
“hey don’t really want to live like Americans they want to bring Mexico here and fade out everything else. ”
How exactly is America being faded out? Have new cultures around doesn’t make America cease to be, it just means there’s more cultures added to the mix.
If my street fills with Afghanis, I don’t suddenly become Afghani. I’m still who I am.
“One town I worked inhad a main street nearly full of Hispanic run, Spanish only speaking restaurants and stores”
One town you went to was filled with restaurants and stores that were run by migrants and was actually running. For a person living in a country still struggling out of the worst recession since the Great depression, you’d think you’d be celebrating about this.
” I went in one and could not even communicate enough to get prices or descriptions of product in there!!”
And so….you go to another store. This isn’t that tricky. It’s in the stores interests to be able to serve people in Spanish, but also to serve you in English. If you can’t be served in one store, you go to another (And considering the vast majority of Americans use English as a sole language, you won’t need to search hard) and get service. More money goes to the store that can serve the larger number of people survives in the long run. Capitalism-it works….sometimes.
“Wouldn’t that bug you?”
Yes, then I would realise I am a white English speaking male, and I can enter any shop in the world and have a better than 50/50 chance that the store will be able to serve me in English, go to another shop, and buy the item.
And then, I think that if being unable to enter one shop is the worse thing in the world that’s going to happen to me, I’m going to have a sainted life.
“’m all for multiculture for sure but not at the expense of another’s.”
How is your culture being degraded by Mexico, Australia or wherever? So far your only complaints are “I couldn’t go to one shop….out of literally thousands that I could” and “Damn those Mexicans with their job producing businesses-why couldn’t they have foreclosed businesses like everyone else”
Incidentally, as you say you oppose multiculturalism when it involves….too many migrants of one culture moving into one area, migrants being proud of where they come from, migrants celebrating their culture, and migrants opening businesses and restaurants to express their culture (And at the same time create jobs, and taxes)-how exactly are you for multiculturalism? Or is it a case of “I support multiculturalism when everyone pretends to be white, and not too many people who aren’t white turn up”?
“I love American food and stores too and would hate to see them dissapear cause Mexicans would rather go to theirs”
Wait….so Mexicans should support American food industries….even if they don’t like it. They should eat all American food, and nothing else, and support businesses that may not need to exist, rather than create their own businesses that do.
Damnit-I hate to sound like the capitalist here, but what the hell is wrong with you? This is how the market works. Popular eateries who serve great food get the money and survive. Terrible eateries that serve unpopular food collapse. Do we really want to live in the world where migrants (And only Mexican migrants-you’re allowed to eat wherever you want I notice) are required to prop up food stores based on their Americaness-instead of whether or not they serve good food?
You want American food to continue. Eat it. Eat it every single day. This is how industries survive-people support them. Or, you could grab a Mexican and shove a hot dog down their throat shouting “EAT IT! SUPPORT AMERICA! USA USA USA!”
See which one has the greater effect.
Incidentally Taco Bell is not mexican food. Taco Bell is garbage fed to dogs. Calling it Mexican would be like calling Outback Steakhouse Australian food. Try some true mexican food from actual mexican restaurants sometime, and you’ll be amazed.
” just not care to learn English”
Again, not really your problem. If someone chooses to not learn English (Instead of being too old, or too young to know it yet), then they are hurting themselves more than they are hurting you. If you refuse to learn the English language you cannot find a job outside of your neighbourhood, you cannot get a good education, you cannot really move outside your neighbourhood. So there’s one street where someone can get by without learning English-do you know of a lot of people who are happy to get by in life without leaving one street?
You can go wherever you want, and like I said, have an extremely good chance of finding work, study options, and service. Someone who refuses to learn English does not have these options. Yet you’re the one complaining.
” or fit in to their new country”
How exactly does someone fit into thier new country without denying who they are? Because so far all yuo’re saying is that people should not celebrate thier culture, should not display their culture, and shouldn’t open businesses related to their culture.
So how does one keep their culture in a new country? Or is it a case of “Deny who you are as soon as you arrive”?
Damn, you’re against capitalist market deals, and against cultural identity-this is sounding so much like communism it’s scary!
I knew you guys were going to say that about taco bell lol I almost wrote it myself but forgot but you’re right its not authentic but I love it anyway 🙂 and of course I have eaten at many “real” Mexican places and love that too …I am not afraid to admit I am less educated about a lot of this stuff than you guys, you all make good points and I’m glad I’m here to learn more…I have been away from Australia for nearly 8 years and the boat people issue has only come up since I’ve been over here so I’m just learning about it now. My opinions are still being formed, I think of myself as very open-minded and willing to hear all the facts and change my mind if needed when presented with more evidence. My opinion so far is really based upon my observations in this country. Its a hard place to be cause I am a loving, friendly accepting person and have friends and family from many different cultures I guess my opinions changed a lot from living in a different country and around a lot of Hispanic people, while its never a good thing to generalise, a lot of them would come into my vet office not knowing English and expecting us to speak Spanish to accommodate them. That’s what got me annoyed in the first place. They seem to not want to learn English or be part of the american society but simply create their own separate one instead. And not just streets but towns really! I think a lot if them come up from Mexico so they can earn money for their families back home but that’s all they’re here for. So they make their own little Mexican city where they hide I guess. Maybe I’m way off but that’s how it appears. Yes they make new jobs but then hire each other. So not really helping America just using their land basically. It sucks too that not knowing Spanish limits your job prospects in these areas cause employers benefit more of course.
Have any of you lived in other countries? Maybe you can understand where I’m coming from. If not maybe you can’t. I have an Aussie flag on my car. And in my house. I tell most people I meet. I’m not going to have a parade in my town cause I think …I dunno… just wouldn’t feel right. I’m not ashamed of my flag lol that’s going a bit far JM. There are rules for flying flags here though are you aware? You cant just put an Aussie flag in your front yard.
Please don’t put me down cause I don’t even know what communism really is. Or market capitalism. I’m here to learn. Thanks for your polite input.
” They seem to not want to learn English or be part of the american society but simply create their own separate one instead. ”
Have you tried learning another language? It’s hard! Really really hard. As I mentioned before, people do it because if they want to move about in Western society, they need to, and if people come into your Vet shop expecting you to know Spanish, they’re in for a surprise.
But…and this is where capitalism comes in, if you had a spanish speaking staff member, you would pick up a lot of business.
” I think a lot if them come up from Mexico so they can earn money for their families back home but that’s all they’re here for. ”
And that’s a problem….how? They’re not taking jobs anyone else wants-because people who don’t speak English don’t get to choose their jobs. As most farms will say, if they did not have workers coming from Mexico they would not have workers at all.
If payment is done legally-you get taxes. Even if payment is done illegally (cash in hand), you get the flow on effect from their work. It’s a win-win.
I heard some people in Australia complaining like you, saying that Chinese workers just come to australia to send money back to China….but while they are here they are working, making money (which is usually taxed), spending money on rent, food, clothes, local services….even if they send a lot of money back home they need to spend money in their host country to survive.
“Yes they make new jobs but then hire each other.”
So they make jobs, then choose who they employ? How DARE they? The job positions should be decided not by the employer’s judgement of who is most suited for the job, but because of a Government decision.
Again, these jobs create businesses, which by your own account are doing quite well, and create taxes to pay for services which might just be able to get the US Economy slowly out of the deep recession it’s found itself. And you want to stop that?
“So not really helping America just using their land basically. ”
New businesses means new jobs. New jobs means less reliance on public service. New jobs means more income tax going to Government. More income means more ability to spend income in the country, supporting more businesses which in turn make new jobs and more revenue in taxes.
How is that not helping America?
” It sucks too that not knowing Spanish limits your job prospects ”
You mean you’re angry that not being bilingual limits your job prospects? Yes, this is a fair complaint-how dare employers favour people who can communicate to a larger number of customers, therefore increasing business and making more money-how DARE they?
Incidentally, as before, you are complaining about a small limitation you have, which goes against your overwhelming privelege. Are you honestly telling us it’s easier for a person who can only speak Spanish to find a job in America than it is for someone who can only speak English?
“Have any of you lived in other countries? ”
Yes. Japan, Canada, the UK.
“Maybe you can understand where I’m coming from. If not maybe you can’t.”
Nope, really can’t. I was a proud Australian in all these countries. I did celebrate Australia Day in Venice, and didn’t hide who I was, because it’s something that makes me happy.
“I’m not going to have a parade in my town cause I think …I dunno… just wouldn’t feel right.”
Okay, a parade is a bit far, but why not celebrate Australia Day. Why does moving to another country mean you have to not celebrate who you are?
This is a long comment thread. I think it’s worthwhile to note that currently Mexicans and Central Americans who immigrate to the USA are not refugees (although perhaps many could argue that Mexico’s “war against drugs” has forced them to flee their homes and country in fear of their lives, thus giving them refugee status). There are similarities in the way they are treated on both sides of the border and by the people who “help” smuggle them across – often leading to their own deaths. There is huge risk for people to leave their homes and migrate to the US and many don’t make it.
hhhmmmm, you sound like you’re trying hard to understand and be tolerant of people of other cultures without actually having a clue as to what’s going on in their lives or how to do this. You say Mexicans should assimilate into American culture but you are quick to point out to others that you’re Aussie wherever you can. This is because you might look like an American at first glance, and it doesn’t go against you to point out that you’re from Australia. If you were from El Salvador, however, not everyone would say “Ohh El Salvador? Can you say something in English? I love how you people speak!” as they do to Australians cos they like the Aussie accent. This makes it a lot easier for you to assimilate into white American California and grumble at people who don’t have it as easy as you do. I encourage you to read and consider carefully what Peggy McIntosh wrote called “White Privilege: Unpacking the Invisible Backpack”, available at http://www.amptoons.com/blog/files/mcintosh.html – this was written primarily reflecting on the racial differences between blacks and whites, but in it you may discover that much of the privilege and options and freedoms you enjoy as an Australian simply do not exist for people of other cultures, including Mexicans.
For the record, I’m an Australian living in Mexico. I do not fly my Aussie flag in my house. And Taco Bell is anything but Mexican food.
Just want to add that this is probably totally separate to asylum seekers since they are trying to get in legally….right? But a lot of the Mexicans here haven’t and aren’t. And this is info I’ve been hearing a lot. They are getting in, obtaining social security numbers illegally and then hitting up the welfare system for an easy ride, putting their kids in school etc and all the while not paying any taxes towards any of it. It cost me thousands to be able to get into and live and work in this country, then I paid taxes too. I know its hard to distinguish who do and who don’t go about it the right way and want to start in a new country for the right reasons and with every intention of working their way in and up and earning what they get. But there are certainly plenty of those that don’t…
Also I want to apologize for all my typos and spelling and grammar mistakes previously I have been using my phone and darn autocorrect plus my tendonitis and 2 small kids have made me rush and let mistakes go….I normally pride myself on correct grammar and spelling and get annoyed at mistakes others make.
“Just want to add that this is probably totally separate to asylum seekers since they are trying to get in legally….right? ”
Right. Asylum seeking is legal, whereas people coming over the border are illegal immigrants.
“They are getting in, obtaining social security numbers illegally and then hitting up the welfare system for an easy ride,”
As as for an easy ride-as you’ve shown they’re working! Working hard in shops, and if you want to see more-go check out a farm or a rich person’s house-see the incredibly hard working migrants involved there.
There’s a documentary made in England called “When the migrants left” where long erm unemployed British natives were provided with the jobs migrants were already doing. Virtually all of them were not able to succeed in their jobs-some didn’t turn up.
And the truth is, if these farmers could find a lot of American natives who would do this very very hard work, they would. But they can’t. Same in Australia-the farms would love local food pickers, but they don’t get tat.
“the while not paying any taxes towards any of it. ”
Where on earth are you getting that from? Having lived in America, as a toursit for 2 months, I was a paying a lot of tax-because you have a tax on everything? You have GST, you have sales tax, as well as income tax. The only way Mexicans could avoid paying any money in tax is if they never ate, drink, or bought anything.
“It cost me thousands to be able to get into and live and work in this country, then I paid taxes too.”
But that’s the problem. The people who can pay thousands of dollars aren’t the people who will accept the jobs that need feeling, such as farm work. Would you have spent thousands of dollars just to work on a farm 12 hours a day?
By the way-having a fake social security number doesn’t get you welfare. It just means you’re putting money into social security that you can never get back. It’s like-if I made up a fake bank account-one that doesn’t exist, and deposited money into that account. The Bank would keep the money, but I could never access it.
Sorry mindmadeup you cannot compare the 2 countries USA & Australia until you account for the inhabitable land mass for each. plus jobs available. housing, water supply, etc.
And what are these asylum seekers really bringing with them to add to the economy?
The mexicans crossing the boarder every year, work jobs in the USA that no one else will do. Laboring Jobs. Farm work, restaurant cooks, painters. etc. They are given these jobs because they are cheap to hire, Americans would not work for the wage these mexicans are paid. But it is more than they would make in their own country. Many have been illegally in the country for years, not payiing taxes. They send most of their income back to Mexico.
If they have a baby here in the USA, the baby becomes a US citizen upon birth giving that child all the welfare rights.( a drain to the economy) etc. etc…
No one can compare one country or even one state of a country until one has all the facts!!! Each are only capable of so much growth in population for economical stability.
Also I don’t know why you take my words to mean the extreme, I am not against cultural identity…denying who you are. I certainly don’t, ask anyone who knows me here and they will tell you where I came from, how much I talk about home and love and miss it like crazy. So much I think I annoy people with my insinuations that Australia is the better country ;-). BUT I have also embraced the American lifestyle, celebrate with them and adapted to their food etc. Of course I still make Aussie dishes when I can, keep vegemite and custard powder and crunchies when I can get them. But …that’s all I’ve got. Just wanted you to know before you make more assumptions of me.
I like different cultures in one place. I also love Indian food, Asian food, thai food…but everything in moderation. I just don’t want Australia to become like Here where small groups take over towns. Maybe that won’t happen. Just putting it out there.
“BUT I have also embraced the American lifestyle, ”
How? What is the American lifestyle? In what ways have you embraced it that the Mexican population has not?
“celebrate with them”
Did you think that they might be a little resistant to celebrating with white Americans because
A) Language difficulties. Migrants are incredibly self conscious about their language-even if they can speak fluently, they’re scared about embarrassing themselves by saying or interpreting something the wrong way-and often would prefer to say nothing than to say the wrong thing.
B) Fear of the general public. Let’s face it-the descriptions given to the Latino population in America by the media, the politicians and the community is not a nice one. It is deliberatley aggressive, and antagonistic. I can see the same thing in Australia regarding the Muslim community-many Muslims are scared of white Australia because they’ve seen politicians and media people often saying “The Muslims are evil and will destroy Australia” I can easily find politicians and media people, let alone community leaders say “Mexicans are to blame for unemployment/drugs/all crime/the destruction of America”
Now if someone had said all these things about you-would you feel comfortable going to their house to celebrate?
” and adapted to their food etc”
Again…so Mexicans are required, in order to become americans, to eat like Americans, even if they don’t want to? Freedom, something I believe is popular in America, includes the right to eat what you want. And if you don’t like something, you don’t have to eat it.
To flip this on the other side, if a Mexican family moved into your street, and said you must eat Mexican food, must support Mexican food insutries, even if it’s something you hated….would that be okay with you? If not, you are suggesting the same thing to Mexican families.
“I like different cultures in one place. I also love Indian food, Asian food, thai food…but everything in moderation. ”
How does that even work? “Okay-we’ve got two Thai families, one Indian family and three Mexican families-no more Mexican families are allowed to enter the town until more Indians do)?
The truth is new communities do start by moving into one area…because it’s safer. New communities are scared-even if they know English they are not comfortable with it, they;re used to stories of racism and hatred being directed at them in the news and throughout history, and they can’t afford to live in “safe” places, so the best option is to live in unsafe areas where everyone knows you. That happened with the Italian communities, the Irish communities, the Polish communities, Jewish communities, and now the Mexican communities.
But it changes over time. Not immediatly, but if people can afford it, they get out of that area-particularly young people. Suddenly it spreads out a little more, then a little more. The community hub remains, just as there are Italian areas in NYC, but as the community spreads out, everyone else moves in (usually because the then cheaper housing has become a popular area)
” I just don’t want Australia to become like Here where small groups take over towns.”
You’ve described a town where there are many businesses which are running, creating wealth for the community, and you’re annoyed because they don’t all speak English, and they don’t serve “American” food. I can think of plenty of small towns in Australia that would love a new community creating wealth.
In fact, I live in one right now. In Shepparton the Afghani community has mapped a little community for themselves, creating businesses, jobs, and wealth. More jobs means fewer people on centrelink, means more taxes come to the local council to spend on improving services. And it’s been a bit of a hit.
What would the alternative be? Let’s destroy this myth that Mexicans are coming into a mom & pop diner with guns shouting “All right-we’re taking over this business”-they are not stealing or taking from anyone. They are, instead, creating a business, which means generating wealth. As the alternative would be to have areas where there are no businesses-is this really a better place to be?
And here’s what you ignored:
1- How exactly is America being faded out? Have new cultures around doesn’t make America cease to be, it just means there’s more cultures added to the mix.
2- How is your culture being degraded by Mexico, Australia or wherever?
3- Incidentally, as you say you oppose multiculturalism when it involves….too many migrants of one culture moving into one area, migrants being proud of where they come from, migrants celebrating their culture, and migrants opening businesses and restaurants to express their culture (And at the same time create jobs, and taxes)-how exactly are you for multiculturalism?
4- If someone chooses to not learn English (Instead of being too old, or too young to know it yet), then they are hurting themselves more than they are hurting you. If you refuse to learn the English language you cannot find a job outside of your neighbourhood, you cannot get a good education, you cannot really move outside your neighbourhood. So there’s one street where someone can get by without learning English-do you know of a lot of people who are happy to get by in life without leaving one street?
Hi JM.
I’m originally from Shep too. The last time I lived there was about 8 years ago though.
I do miss the diversity of culture in Shepparton. Where I live now is much much less culturally diverse, and it’s a real shame that we haven’t seen more people from various different cultures, including more refugees and asylum seekers, move here. The community would really benefit.
Be well.
Oh… and hhhmmmm just on the whole Mexican population and speaking Spanish thing in that area of the US.
I’d think the least Americans can do is be understanding and helpful when people from Mexico migrate (if you can call returning to land migrating…) and make some effort to learn a little Spanish if they live in a community with a significant number of people who’s first or prodominant language is Spanish. It helps people to then be able to learn English more fluently and aids in community buildng and social cohesian (it always baffles me why so many English speakers think that everyone else should know English but that we shouldn’t also make an effort to learn other languages…)
By the way…almost all second generation people of Hispanic heritage in the US speak fluent English, most with English as a first language…with only around half of the second generation still speaking Spanish. If that’s not ‘integrating’ I don’t know what is…
(I’m sure you’re aware that we hear the same complaints about migrant communities in Australia…which are so totally unfounded as we have a long history of ALL migrant communities integrating well and the 2nd generation being fluent in English. Migrants who have access to the community, and especially if they have access to English classes, also do extremely well at becoming fluent in a short amount of time).
Spanish is the second most commonly spoken language in the US with around 30% of the population speaking it, higher in some areas… And it used to be one of the languages when the US was officially bilingual (English and Spanish were the languages used in legislature etc). It’s not Spanish is a new language to the US, especially to those South Western states which actually used to be part of Mexico…
It makes sense to me that as many Americans as possible would learn Spanish, especially in areas with higher levels of Spanish speaking people and businesses, and such a strong Spanish speaking history, as is the case in the South West.
So much of American culture, names of places etc come from Spanish heritage, and it’s one of the largest Spanish speaking comnunities in the world. It makes no sense to me why there is so much hostility from English speaking Americans.
Ali you are right. I forget the history of the place. And I too don’t fully understand the cracked relationship between Americans and Mexicans. When I first moved here, I got in trouble for calling them Mexicans!! I was told to say “Hispanic” so I wasn’t being offensive. offensive? Its crazy!! They have been put down so much its terrible. I think unfortunately I have been rubbed off on by alot of different people I have met or worked with that are truly racist without appearing so and planted seeds in my mind. I used to be much nicer and less critical. 😦 and yes there are many second generation kids that speak both fluently and they often come into our office to translate for their parents. Kind of annoying trying to explain technical medical terms to young children but what can you do. We do have bilingual employees also JM my boss isn’t dumb but I did get my job just based on my animal degree, most of the bilingual girls he takes right from school with no experience but their language skill is their ticket in. Pretty much all businesses in and around the county I lived in had bilingual workers so technically JM they could go about their whole lives happily not knowing English and not caring. I can’t say for sure of course I’ve never done a survey. And there are still lots that are learning and when they come in to try to talk to me in English I love it and try my best to speak to them with the little Spanish I have picked up over the years. So yes JM I have tried to learn Spanish not just for our clients but also to communicate with some of my hubbys family from PR that don’t know English. Plus its fun to use with my other family that speak both, and I do want to teach my sons since its also their heritage.
I also studied another language in school. It is hard yes but I think if I moved to another country that did not speak English I would definitely be doing all I can to learn theirs…it just makes sense and shows respect. If I livedin Asia, I would eat, drink and dress Asian to be respectful and fit in there. Just makes sense to me. But I wouldn’t be hiding my true self either. What proud Aussie could? Of course I celebrate Aussie day and whatever else in my home. There’s a difference. They really do have cinco due mayo and other parades and stuff here I wasn’t being sarcastic there.
Anyhow, I am still taking all this info that you are presenting in and changing my opinions so thank you for that. 🙂
“. Pretty much all businesses in and around the county I lived in had bilingual workers so technically JM they could go about their whole lives happily not knowing English and not caring. ”
Really? Think about it though-as Ali stated, the proportion of America that speaks Mexican is 30%. That’s a lot of the population you can’t access if you can’t speak English.
And that’s a lot of jobs you can’t get. If you can’t read and write English, how do you apply for most jobs in America, let alone get them? Even in your example, you note it’s not Spanish only speaking workers who get a chance at getting jobs-it’s bilingual workers who get a great chance at getting jobs. And of course they do-it’s a skill that incredibly useful, but not so common. It’s the same at my organisation-we need Migrant support workers, and those who are bilingual or multilingual, even if their credentials aren’t as strong as other contenders, are greatly needed.
As for jobs that only need Spanish only speakers-yep they exist. They’re not that good though. People don’t become millionaires in America while only being able to speak Spanish. This whole issue reminds me of a story we had in Australia, where a current affairs program complained about job advertisements only being put in Chinese or Vietnamese in areas with a large Chinese population. And it complained about “Not letting kids get jobs” and “They’re discriminating against White people” but didn’t mention a main thing that my wife who is Vietnamese and has previously done such jobs, pointed out: – “You don’t paid anything for that job-less than minimum wage, and sometimes not even that”
“I would eat, drink and dress Asian to be respectful and fit in there.”
Again, so to be respectful to a new country, a person must eat like an American, drink like an American, and dress like an American? Even if they don’t want to?
Again, if someone forced you to eat food you hated, in the name of cultural identity, would you be happy about this?
“They really do have cinco due mayo and other parades and stuff here I wasn’t being sarcastic there.”
Yes, I know of cinco de mayo-but you got to realise, that’s not really a Mexican holiday. You go to Mexico, it’s not celebrated. It’s a marketing holiday-a holiday created by drinks companies to drink Mexican beer.
And Mexicans, being wise, accepted this holiday because it meant many people would eat at Mexican restaurants or buy Mexican products-it’s seeing an opportunity and making money off it.
By the time most of these people are processed they have been traumatised by detention. Living in a jail type environment can have serious mental health ramificiations. A larger debt to our society. Process them quickly and offer them a life here. The cost of detention is way too much.
The main reason I think the “boat people” are a problem is because they are jumping the line ahead of legitimate refugees from all over the world. The ones who go about it all the right way are being turned away due to the amounts of these people coming by boat. Its not fair to the refugees is Africa for example. That’s not to mention the money that it is costing us as a nation. Im all for multicuturalism but id rather it be the ones who go about it the right way who get excepted.
That’s true, Samiller. African refugees aren’t turned away, however asylum seekers coming to Australia do lengthen the time other refugees spend in refugee camps. However there’s one thing you should think about.
Do you know how many other countries apart from Australia link asylum seeker numbers with refugee intake numbers? In other words, do you know how many countries reduce the number of refugees they bring in by the number of asylum seekers they take in?
None. Nada. Not a one.
So the blame for queue jumping should not be placed on asylum seekers. After all, if we had to flee the country, would we be thinking about every other refugee in the world, or thinking primarily about protecting our own families? How often do you consider the plight of every refugee in the world when deciding on your daily decisions? To expect any particular asylum seeker to seek out a refugee camp (Which are often harder to gain access to for countries in the Middle East compared to Africa), because they’re concerned about all other refugees in the world is not just expecting normal selflessness, it’s expecting selflessness to the point of sainthood, to a degree never seen before on this planet.
The problem with the boat people is not queue jumping, as what they are doing is legal and purposeful. The problem is the Government who set up a system that competed groups of asylum seekers against each other, only in order to denigrate those who risk their lives to save themselves and their family.
Putting it that way makes a lot of sense. This is why I read this blog, to learn =]
Like! 🙂
There is no global “queue”. It would be great if there was, but the worldwide situation which produces refugees also works against having a fair and equitable system for resettlement.
thanks for that link, it’s always good to have something like this to direct bogots to.
Not that any of them will read it, it’s written by a pinko-commie-leftie-tree-hugging-unStrayan at Amnesty International after all and goes against everything they would have learned from TT or ACA
All I know is these people are hero’s. They are starving to death, but yet can make the incredible journey. I would let these people into my home for a home cooked meal.
Daniel are you aware that in May 2013 a jihad terrorist mannaged to sift from these boat assylum seekers & make his way to the Adelaide Hills, Sth Australia Where he was caught & detained… I’m all for long time processing. Obtain all info & facts before entry.
Samantha, you are aware that that so called jihadi terrorist then had his convictions quashed, turning up they were made up by the same government he was fleeing?
Incidentally, he was in detention for the entirety of his time in Australia.
Send them all back where they came from on the first available flight, and they will very quickly stop coming.
Shame we cannot do that to racists. Maybe a leaky boat for the xenophobes, pointed towards Antarctica?
Funny how heroic the uninitiated, uneducated minority can be behind the anonymity of the Internet..Real refugees cannot afford tens of thousands of dollars to pay for their trip. When you get to work with real refugees you can feel qualified to comment.
As for your hackneyed insults, heard it all before from equally ignorant individuals who know nothing about it as well.
People threatened by death in countries like Iraq aren’t necessarily beggars with no money. They scrap together everything they’ve got and board boats that quite often sink, killing all on board. There have been over 100,000 civilian deaths in Iraq since occupation. When you get a fucking clue then maybe you can speak up.
Your ignorance and single minded blindness is patently obvious in your pathetic comments. There are none so blind as those who will not see.
Says the dipshit thinking he knows the intimate financial details of every asylum seeker ever to seek refuge in another country.
Please tell me where the Australian consulate exists in Afghanistan, so we can tell Afghanis to go and join the ‘queue’.
Fuckhead.
Your vocabulary seems to be about as advanced as your knowledge of this topic. It’s truly a pity that there is no IQ test to be taken before you get to vote. Though your puerile comments indicate you probably haven’t reached voting age yet.
Perhaps if you ever start paying tax you may begin to appreciate the reality.
By all means patronize based on assumption. You’re the one that eventually looks like a moron.
Feel free to argue the myth debunking contained on our website. I wish you the very best of luck, though I doubt you’ll need it as there’s no true substitute for real facts other than one’s opinion, right?
If that is your way of apologising for your rudeness, I will gracefully accept it, and it’s great to see you finally mention fact.
Have a nice day.
Never mistake our sarcasm for grovelling to the likes of you.
Now piss off.
Well one of us is certainly ignorant, however when/if you grow up and hopefully get a decent education that could change.
Why do you lot assume that we are uneducated children? It is obviously a ploy to conceal your own yawningly obvious deficiencies by desperately trying to make out that we are as ignorant as you.
It is you who needs to grow up.
“Funny how heroic the uninitiated, uneducated minority can be behind the anonymity of the Internet”
Pot. Kettle. Black.
And we really cannot give a stuff what an ignorant bigot thinks of us, anonymous or not.
i don’t understand, brumby. are you actually saying that a person who has some money, not necesarily being rich but having accesss to enough money to get out of the country, they xan never have their lives be at risk due to their race, religion, culture, or sexual orientation?
to put this in context, the jews that spent a lot of money to flee nazi germany, were not, according to you refugees, and should have been sent back to germany. is that right?
incidentally, i know quite a few muslims who have a permanent job. quite a few are work colleagues of mine. yet i’ve never found a racist, in my experience, who has had a permanent job. so, by your justification, we should deport all racists because they do nothing but get welfare, and do not help our community.
A refugee: “A person who owing to a well-founded fear of being persecuted for reasons of race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group or political opinion, is outside the country of his nationality and is unable or, owing to such fear, is unwilling to avail himself of the protection of that country.” According to the UN, how much money someone has doesn’t come into it.
But on the money thing – judges have given some people smugglers minimum sentences based on the fact that they helped people flee to Australia for no money. Many people who come to Australia by boat don’t pay anything. Others have enough money to pay. Others pay using the money given to them by their extended families and community in the hope that even one person will survive. None of those things mean a person is more or less likely to be a “real” refugee.
HAHAH what a douche! I would much rather Australia be full of refugees then people like you.
You might be thinking of economic refugees. Just because you come from a war torn country or you’re being persecuted, doesn’t mean you’re poor.
They don’t have ten of thousands of dollars to spend? It’s not the poor people, the real refugees who need it most that are on the boats. You think people smugglers are charity workers who do it for free?! There are very few areas in the world that are considered a war zone today and the ones that are, Australia contributes to the UN refugee programme there. How many people can we help in their own countries for the same amount of money as a boat person would cost?
Anna, again, just because an asylum seeker has money doesn’t mean they aren’t legitimate refugees. To give an example from earlier, Jews who could afford to flee Nazi Germany did. According to your definition, they aren’t real refugees and should have been sent back to Nazi Germany.
“There are very few areas in the world that are considered a war zone today”
Refugees don’t always come from war zones. They come from countries where they experience a real fear of persecution or death due to their race, culture, religion, political leanings or sexuality.
Again, if we defined refugees as only coming from war zones, you would be telling Jews fleeing Nazi Germany (Prior to the outrbeak of WWII), to go back home because they aren’t refugees. Similar examples from current times are China, Vietnam, Pakistan, and Sri Lanka. None of these would be considered war zones, but all have severe persecution due to race, culture, religion and political leanings.
“How many people can we help in their own countries for the same amount of money as a boat person would cost?”
And how exactly do we help people fleeing persecution in China without accepting asylum seekers? How exactly do we stop persecution in Sri Lanka, Taliban reprisals in Pakistan, and government crackdowns in Vietnam?
Refugees are not all ‘poor destitute beggars’. You can be working or middle class and have to seek asylum for a variety of reasons. You could have sold everything you owned, or pooled all of your families’ money and made the brave solo journey to try and escape the horror of your life back home.
rushofsun I love your comment. Many do not realize this fact. And the fact that if they had not their ruling dictatorial governments would have disposed of all they owned for their own folly.
dont feed the brumby troll
Processing seems to be a big problem here. With the exception of Sweden, every other country accepting refugees has a much larger population and workforce. Perhaps we should ask Sweden how they manage processing and accepting refugees. But I guess they don’t have people drowning in leaky boats getting there.
Canada is not much larger than Australia. And our economy is better.
Canada’s economy is half again the size of Australia’s, and I’m not sure how the economy in Australia is “better”, but the Canadian economy is doing just fine..
Thanks to all the Canadian mining companies in Mexico and the Mexican government’s complicity in allowing them to dig up sacred areas and not tell the investors about the protests and the murders of the people who live there … the Canadian economy is doing just fine.
The stats listed above do not give us any idea of how many refugees arrive in other countries with passports or some other type of ID. Perhaps this is why we are so slow with the red tape, as the boat people arrive often with no form of identification. Does anyone know the answer to this question?
it’s pretty similar the world over… lack of access to accurate documentation is a big issue for asylum seekers from most parts of the world and all countries who process asylum seekers have the same difficulty with having to identify people who do not have accurate identity documents. Other countries just manage to do it much faster than we do.
Desley perhaps you can ask the racists especially here, as they seen to have all the answers from watching shows like Today Tonight?
And from Compass forum especially Irish and goiday_myd ®
Most refugees accepted in Sweden have already been processed outside of Sweden before arriving. Others that come as refugees have all their id and nationality papers with them upon arrival, this speeds the applications up, contrary to a lot if not the majority of irregular maritime arrivals to Australia who arrive here without any proper nationality documents or id”s. The main reason for the long processing time in Australia is to establish a persons nationality and to get verification of nationality from the country the claim fleeing from. There is a reason to why people from let say Pakistan or Iraq throw away their documentation before setting out from Indonesia or Malaysia, but I am not about t divulge that information due to professional reasons.
Seriously some of the comments doesn’t make logic. For not allowing ppl to live in community during the time of their application been process. How devastating is to live in detention rather then living in community till the time ur decision is made. Sitting on another side of the fence and saying is one thing. perhaps try living in detention for just 90 days and then please share. WOULD You LIKE TO STAY IN AND WAIT FOR DECISION OR BE IN COMMUNITY?
For me boat people should be stoped? why? children drowning. For me, don’t understand why Rudd and co are not charged with manslaughter due to their policy failures. I never understood, why people encourage boat people and people smuggling. Maybe you should go see a child drown to death?
You obviously have not been following the news.
You know what’s interesting? When people who say they care about stopping asylum seekers to prevent deaths at sea (Definitely a worthy goal), want to charge Rudd for manslaughter due to policy failures. Apparently SIEV X was not a manslaughter case.
Incidentally, no one here encourages people smugglers. But treating desperate people who come here harshly would be inhumane. What other situation exists ever where it is okay to punish desperate innocent people, in the hope someone else will learn from that?
Some interesting comments. I would like to point out that my wife is vey ill and finds it difficult to medical attention, she cannot work, and support is $100 per week. Why should any non australian get any benifits and care before her?
I think can and should accept refugess and other workers but accept them on our terms.
Lets keep it simple. Stop the deaths. Stop the detensions. People should apply properly, get assessed, and then be allowed in.
How exactly does an Afghani apply for a refugee assesment properly? Please be specific.
And what do we do for those who arrive here, if we refuse to accept them as refugees for not applying through a “proper” channel?
“Why should any non australian get any benifits and care before her?”
What benefits are refugees entitled to seek that the general australian publib aren’t?
“and finds it difficult to medical attention”
Why is that the case? She’s entitled to medicare, including publib hospital usage. She would need to go on a waiting list for all non-emergency syrgery true, but here’s the thing-so do refugees.
Coops is your claim “Why should any non australian get any benifits and care before her?” based on facts or watching Today Tonight?
But what would you suggested we do about those who overstay their visa’s? Ah forget you are allowed in and stay with Coops and his wife?
Lets keep it simple. Based your claims on facts, not shows like Today Tonight. Thanks
Now let’s put this in perspective…
Key Points –
Overstayers – Leave
The US has 5 times more asylum seekers and 10 times the population
Australia is an island – France & Canada have land means to remove non-legal immigrants.
Signed,
An Australian LEGALLY residing in the US.
Reblogged this on Damn the Matrix and commented:
Amazing factoids to go with my ‘stench’ post…….
The Greens are going to just allow “anybody”to come to Australia in Boats and virtually GIVE them everything, in the meantime,regular australians are working their asses off paying taxes which are then used to fund these so called refugees.What happened to helping out poor and needy australians FIRST?????What happened to giving state funded houses to people who really need shelter,What happened to stopping DISEASE from entering our country?????………………………………..Christine Milne DONT bloody get me started ok??????? Its ok for you bloody politicians to just get a pay increase willy nillie when ever you see fit,However when the nurses and police for instance ask for a pay increase, it has to eventually come down to a really measly amount. You Bloody Greens are going to really STUFF this Beautiful country. You Bloody Greens are eventually going to allow so many illegals in and you are going to cut short the process and one day a serious Disease is going to break out here because you Bastards allowed it to come in. I thought part of the detention process was to screen for illnesses?????? Another thing,if you Idiots are so naive as to think that these people “just materialised”in Indonesia and they have NO PAPERS then we are well and truely sunked in this country. MY QUESTION…..if they are Iranian,Iraqui,Somali,North African or Afghani for example,how the bloody hell did they get to Indonesia in the first place without papers???If you people really want to help the GENUINE REFUGEES,….Yes there is such a thing as genuine refugees,you would go to countries like Africa,Thailand (hang on why am I telling you where to go, you idiots should already know)and take the people who have been there, living in tents and no running water etc and get them that have been there the longest.Im sure these people will even appreciate waiting in the detention centres that we provide now because it is damn side better than the squallor they have been living in. The so called refugees in detention now do not deserve to be here because they are winging at the conditions,EXCUSE ME !!!!!!Our troops go to their country to maintain law and order and they are put up in TENTS, Christine Milne…….get off your bloody high horse and fight for Australia to be a better place, if you cant do that,migrate to where these illegals are coming from…..REMEMBER THE TRUTH HURTS.
LETS SEE IF WE CAN GET A MILLION LIKES FOR THIS
” virtually GIVE them everything,”
What exactly are refugees “given”? Having worked in the refugee support system for years, refugees get very little. If they have been relocated from a camp, they get basic household goods, as do those released from detention. However, if they have been living in the community up until their visa was determined, they are expected to already have goods. In no cases do they get cars, houses, or any thing else.
Of course, there are systems in place for refugees who have not been able to access basic household goods-but these are the same systesm that all people on a low income can access.
“What happened to helping out poor and needy australians FIRST?????”
We do help them. You can help them too. Which particularly needy group would you like to assist-I can link you up to an organisation which would value your money and/or time to assist that group.
“What happened to giving state funded houses to people who really need shelter,”
Already happening. Asylum seekers do not have access to state funded houses (Outside of detention) any faster than Australian born people in need, and in many cases are not allowed to access this at all.
“What happened to stopping DISEASE from entering our country?????”
All permanent migrants receive health checks. Asylum seekers are given health checks in detention prior to being released in the community, then again once their visa is being determined.
“,However when the nurses and police for instance ask for a pay increase, it has to eventually come down to a really measly amount. ”
This has nothing to do with asylum seekers. Incidentally, the Greens support pay increases for nurses and police.
“You Bloody Greens are eventually going to allow so many illegals in and you are going to cut short the process and one day a serious Disease is going to break out here because you ”
Again, health checks for all migrants applying for permanent residency. What more do you want?
“I thought part of the detention process was to screen for illnesses?”
It is.
“.if they are Iranian,Iraqui,Somali,North African or Afghani for example,how the bloody hell did they get to Indonesia in the first place without papers?”
Because borders are visa regulations aren’t as strict in these countries as they are in Australia.
“?If you people really want to help the GENUINE REFUGEES,”
How exactly are asylum seekers not genuine refugees?
“s,you would go to countries like Africa,Thailand (hang on why am I telling you where to go, you idiots should already know)and take the people who have been there,”
Wait, you want us to go to another country and then take people back ourselves? Pretty certain that’s not legal.
“Im sure these people will even appreciate waiting in the detention centres that we provide now because it is damn side better than the squallor they have been living in. ”
So you’re telling everyone “Hey, you traumatised people, come live in our trauma inducing camps-you won’t mind, will you?”
“The so called refugees in detention now do not deserve to be here because they are winging at the conditions”
So, just to be clear, people are not allowed to complain about being put in detention camps for an indefinite period, with nothing to distract them from the fear they have that they will be sent home to be killed, and constant fear that their family is already being killed back home-no one’s allowed to complain about that?
Do you support free speech at all? Because you know that includes the right to complain.
“!Our troops go to their country to maintain law and order and they are put up in TENTS, ”
Soldiers are paid to go to other countries. Asylum seekers are not.
Soldiers are given many many entertainment options to ensure they can relax and not have to feel the separation from their family constantly. Asylum seekers are not.
Soldiers are allowed to walk around their camps, and are allowed to walk into local communities. Asylum seekers are not.
Soldiers know approximately when they can return to see their families. Asylum seekers do not.
Soldiers can choose to leave the army, knowing when they do they will be safe. Asylum seekers do not have this choice.
“.get off your bloody high horse and fight for Australia to be a better place”
How exactly would you like Australia to be a better place? Considering all you’re doing is complaining about asylum seekers, which, as an issue, doesn’t effect Australia at all?
There is a terrible terrible comedy show on the ABC called “Wednesday night fever” – it’s largely unfunny but they did have one particularly good joke “When we stop the boats”-sung by Sammy J, and explaining how everything is going to be better when the boats are stopped. You’ll get your job back, you’ll be more attractive, your team will win the grand final-everything will be perfect!
It was a joke. Australia has problems. If there were no asylum seekers, there would still be those problems.
“LETS SEE IF WE CAN GET A MILLION LIKES FOR THIS
This is not a facebook post. No one can “like” this even if they wanted.
And even if it was a facebook post, you’re not going to get a million likes. You’re not even going to get a million reads. I only read it because I felt the need to correct some incorrect assumptions, in the foolish hope they you would learn from the experience (Blue lantern to my shame).
If they can afford to fly into Jakarta before getting on a boat,they can afford to fly into Australia,at any airport,they will be detained due to no correct visa docs,put on the next plane back to where they came from and we live happily ever after on the money we pay to the taxman ,being used on those who deserve it,i.e. those who paid it in the first place….we have a front door,and a system of immigration,these people use boats to avoid all the official stuff so they can sneak in and tell us we MUST convert to Muslim,change OUR Country ti the same bullshit thousand year old ways of the country they left,and bleed our welfare system dry…sink the bloody boats,then they may stop coming ….
No one is trying to make anyone convert to their religion except for those Christian desperates who come around at weekends and annoy people (you can report them to your local Council by the way)
We’d love to change Australia to eliminate racists and bigots like you. A national gain in IQ.
not true. There are groups within Australia who actively seek to convert this country into an islamic caliphate, running on sharia law. Whilst these groups are currently in the extreme minority there are other much larger groups that are seeking to make it possible to have muslims tried under sharia law instead of australian common law.
1. Utter bullshit. What are you smoking anyway?
2. Are Jews going to be tried by the Beth Din? Are footballers going to be tried by the NRL or AFL?
You are having fairy tales.
Too much watching Today Tonight and smoking the roll up shit that is News Ltd papers there Andrew.
Any examples of people trying to convert Australia into an Islamic Caliphate? Any from a reputable source (Not http://www.ihatemuslims.org or anything like it).
And any example of people trying to implement sharia law? I’m aware of some people using sharia law for social issues (Divorce, adoption, inheritance, custody), but here’s the thing.
These are not used in contradiction to Australian common law. It is recognied in Australian common law that if two parties can settle a dispute through their own mediation, using whatever law they like, it’s okay. If you want to settle divorce proceedings with a partner with decisions made according to sharia law, jewish law, or the international law of the house of pancakes, it’s okay, as long as both parties agree to the decision.
Now if one side objects to the result, they can take this to the family court to settle. However, this is not encouraged, as while through mediation (Again, whether that be through a priest, an imam, or just a family friend), couples can settle some disputes so that, even if they do not reunite, they will move to becoming amicable, through the court process everyone stays life long enemies.
So that’s how shaira law is being used. As a way of mediating through personal and social disputes, to prevent the issue from going to court and increasing the hostility between parties, and only used when both parties agree, and with conclusions only enacted when both parties agree on them. Doesn’t sound that scary when it’s put in those terms?
What color are you?
This rant from Kellii clearly based on watching Today Tonight and smoking the roll up shit that is News Ltd papers like Andrew, proves they are both racists 100%.
None of this shit that oh I work with those from other countries, I am not a racist.
You are a a racist Kellii.
Like Andrew, Kellii would be happy to help hide those who overstay their visa’s?
Well Kellii has to get money from other sources, since they are bleeding the welfare system dry?
“If they can afford to fly into Jakarta before getting on a boat,they can afford to fly into Australia”
Well, no. You can’t just walk into Australia, after purchasing a ticket. You need a visa to get here, and the government is fairly picky about who it allows to have even a tourist visa. Then there’s the problem of having faulty visa information-as many people don’t have correct information when they flee their country (T ogive an example, many Americans don’t have a passport-just because they don’t plan to leave the country. Now, Afghanistan, a much poorer country, where travelling to government documents is a great risk, is expected to be made up entirely of people with all correct visa information?)
“put on the next plane back to where they came from and we live happily ever after ”
While people forcily being sent back to their home countries are killed or tortutred. Happy happy happy, right? Or is it, out of sight, out of mind. Kinda like if someone begged for your help because their house was on fire, but because you didn’t like the look of them, you locked them insdie their burning house, and walked away. Not your problem, and you get to live happily, spending the time you would have spent helping this person, on something better.
Kellil, you say we have a front door and a system of immigration-how exactly do Afghani refugees access this system of immigration?
And please tell me, who has told you to convert to Islam? Tell me particular individuals who have told you personally that you must convert.
“sink the bloody boats,then they may stop coming ….”
So to be clear, you support drowning innocent people, including women and children, to make a point?
you need to give the claim rate per head of population – the US is over 10 times our population. The boat people get a shitty deal all the way along the trail – government and private enterprise thugs in their own country and along the way – people prepared to rip them off and rough them up at every turn to arrive in a country which treats them as criminals unlike those who arrive by air as tourists and then make claims. how about equality of all before the law?
….yeah but we know who the people are coming by air…they’re not throwing their passports into the ocean…..and why are they doing that do you think??!!!
But Sick of the Leftist Clowns, what do you think of those coming by planes overstaying their visa’s? Are you silent on this issue, because you are hiding some?
The problem is:
– people die due to the low quality of boats that come here
– for some reason they don’t follow the legal procedures (people can legally get travel documents, travel on a registered ship and travel to a port at NT with no issues)
– the ‘travel documents brokers’ are all illegal
– due to the above point, we often don’t know WHO the asylum seekers actually are (id documents are faked)
– Australia is a very risk guided and security conscious country
On the flip side:
– These people are desperate for a better life.
Solution (most already implemented)
– High collaboration with Police from their originating countries to arrest and prosecute illegal boat agents/brokers
– Navy to patrol un-seaworthy boats to prevent deaths
– Education at their originating countries to prevent people to enlist illegal brokers (thus lowering their risk of entering an un-seaworthy boat)
– Create a legal, safe and regulated boat service specifically for asylum seekers to ensure their safety
– Create a streamlined way to establish people’s identity
– Find some other solution to detain ‘risky’ people that do not have identification documents. It must be secure enough but also humane.
Are people not right in the head here? We shouldn’t be facilitating this kind of activity at all. Kevin Rudd has put his hand up and said I stuffed up by mucking with Howards Asylum program, and has gone back to a similar program that Howard had in place originally. What is needed is the deterrent to not make the journey, and not being granted Asylum in Australia is the solution. These people want to get to Australia that’s the goal, they have well and truly fled their home countries by the time they get to Australia. The reasons for making the journey to Australia are economic.
Rubbish. If you are merely after money you can apply to come to Australia as a skilled or business migrant, because obviously you are going to have professional qualifications or run a business if you have money. You can also be sponsored by people here.
Immigrants from China, India, Korea and stable South East Asian countries like Malaysia often take this route. They have documentation and they are not in fear of their lives.
Somewhat different if you are a dissident in Vietnam, a Hazara in Afghanistan, a political blogger in Iran. You are then often one step ahead of people who want to torture and murder you.
Delete my IP and email address cunt or I will fuck you up. That is a promise from someone who knows how to use a gun cunt
“The reasons for making the journey to Australia are economic.”
On what basis can you say that? Having worked with asylum seekers for years I’ve yet to meet any who were not in fear of their lives. Many were rejected by the refugee determination process, but this is because they do not meet the letter of the definition of a refugee, not because they don’t have a real fear of persecution.
I’ve seen people being refused because
A) They were fleeing persecution because of their gender-which is not covered by the refugee convention
B) They were fleeing criminal syndicates (Drug cartels in Sth America, Sex slavery rings through east Asia) which had more power than the government-they were rejected.
C) They were fleeing countries where some areas would be a death sentence but others weren’t (Pakistan in particular)-they were rejected.
But apparently you know of people who manage to get through just because they are poor?
Being a war refugee that has come to australia in 1996 through the correct way (plane and going through a court hearing to win a refugee status), I can tell you all its not an easy route (the cost of moving and paying for a court hearing, and yes some people lose and get deported), more often the people coming from boats are promised an opportunity to migrate to a country where they can make an income, there are many reasons why some try to migrate here – destroyed homes, no income, no welfare, discrimination in the community or life under threat.
But from meeting refugee’s that have come from detention camps I have seen first hand that some still have family overseas and they have come to earn money, even people on student visa work illegally cash in hand. I cant figure whether this is good or bad for the economy.
But providing welfare to asylum seekers is going to put a strain on our economy as we the australian people are just adding more to the plate of centrelink takers with no skill (our welfare system should be for the elderly, disabled, widowed and those unemployed for short periods of time), correct me if I am wrong but immigrants do have skills in some areas but as a country do we have a shortage in low educated skills?
I do like the plan to move them to PNG, three main reason:
1. If you are coming from a war torn country or somewhere you feel unsafe, being resettled in safe country with a chance to rebuild your life and family, isnt that what we expect these people want?
2. People who genuinely want to seek refuge will still come to settle in PNG
3. The deterrent of not being able to land in Australia might reduce the asylum seekers (as we already seen riots in one facility), i’ve also heard that current assylum seekers living in australia have signed an agreement that if they are told to move to PNG they must, when this kind of news spreads, I hope lives are saved through less people taking risks on crappy boats.
“But providing welfare to asylum seekers is going to put a strain on our economy as we the australian people are just adding more to the plate of centrelink takers with no skill ”
We aren’t providing welfare to asylum seekers-we’re providing Red Cross payments, which are much smaller than a Centrelink payment, and do not get given to all asylum seekers, only those in severe financial hardship who cannot work.
And as for no skills, asylum seekers have plenty of skills. Sometimes they just need local work experience to get a job.
“(our welfare system should be for the elderly, disabled, widowed and those unemployed for short periods of time)”
And what about people who are unemployed beyond a short period of time? What happens to them?
” being resettled in safe country with a chance to rebuild your life and family, isnt that what we expect these people want?”
How is PNG a safe country? It’s incredibly poor, sufferring from hyper inflation leading to high scale poverty, unemployment and crime.
Mate,racist I am not ,I have no issue with migrants coming to Australia,and living the Australian way,working to pay their way,and contributing to society,as I do.I have issues with the minority who make it difficult for the genuine refugees ,by burning down facilities we paid for ,for their temporary accommodation,demanding we must accept them as refugees,when in fact they are Muslim Extremists,sent here by the ones who are too scared to fight some battle they think needs to be fought.I don’t care if they are or are not religious,what religion they follow ,or which God they pray to.I have issues with the minority trying to tell me ,if I want to live in my country of birth,with them,I must convert to Muslim,pray to Allah,wear a turban and follow their way of life!!! It was my home country long before their boat washed into Australian waters,I like it the way it is ,where if you want to practice Bhuddism.Christianity,Catholicism,or whatever other religion,you can,so long as you keep it to yourself.
Yes, you are racist. Please change.
So Kellii thinks it is ok for her and the minority like her, spreading racist BS to the Internet World, that is clearly based on emotions and watching Today Today?
And she must be a idiot if they think working “quite comfortably,with ,many Asian,African,Polynesian,German,French,English,etc.migrants” she is wait for it, she is not a racist when her own rants proves she is a racist.
” living the Australian way,”
What does that even mean?
“I have issues with the minority who make it difficult for the genuine refugees ,by burning down facilities we paid for ,for their temporary accommodation”
Yeah, not a lot of those people get to stay in Australia. So, your issues are for people who are largely punished and deported for their action.
“when in fact they are Muslim Extremists,sent here by the ones who are too scared to fight some battle they think needs to be fought”
Wait, the asylum seekers are being sent by “someone”-you’ve got to have evidence of this conspiracy.
“I don’t care if they are or are not religious,what religion they follow ,”
The fact you just suggested that you have issues with Muslim extremists (Only Muslim extremists), suggests otherwise.
“,if I want to live in my country of birth,with them,I must convert to Muslim,pray to Allah,”
Who has told you that? Who has told you directly that you must convert to Islam?
“wear a turban”
Wait, they want you to convert to Islam, but dress like a Sikh?
“if you want to practice Bhuddism.Christianity,Catholicism,or whatever other religion,you can,so long as you keep it to yourself.”
As a Christian, this is highly offensive. Why am I meant to hide my religion? I’m not trying to convert you, I’m not trying to change your way of life, but why must I hide my religion? It’s something that is a core part of me, makes me happy, and is an integral part of my life. But for some reason according to you, I have to hide it, people shouldn’t know my religion, it should be treated like something I am ashamed of.
Of course, you don’t have a problem with me being proud of my religion. It’s just one religion in particular which is meant to hide itself. Isn’t it?
Amen!
Both my parents are born elsewhere, and my fathers family went through hell to get to this country… but… beliefs were kept to themselves and not pushed on those around them.
I was born here as was my brother. My parents are now Australian supporters in every way. But get them started on today’s migrants (not all but a good deal of) taking advantage of the (ridiculous) system and you’ll not hear the end of it.
Australia was built on migrants! But not those that burn down facilities and not those who will refuse to abide by the Australian way of life (and law).
AussieDave-how exactly have any new migrants been trying to push their views on you? How exactly do you see migrants refusing to obey Australian laws anymore than the general Australian populace?
And what does this:
” refuse to abide by the Australian way of life ”
Even mean?
I am very interested also in finding out about this “Australian way of life”
It does not seem to have many of the cultural or culinary activities we enjoy attached to it and which one would normally find in a rich culture, except for the ancient practices of Indigenous people which do not seem to engage the proponents of this “Australian way of life”.
It does not seem to encompass activities such as reading and classical music.
It seems to be highly disrespectful to women, with its fans often featuring half-naked pictures of women complete with disgusting comments. It also hates people who love someone of the same gender.
JM I think you should re-read AussieDave’s comment. I do not see where he stated anything about new migrants trying to push their views on him.
You hit a point about “How do you see migrants refusing to obey Australian laws anymore than the general Australian populace”
There are crooks in all cultures!
“JM I think you should re-read AussieDave’s comment. I do not see where he stated anything about new migrants trying to push their views on him.”
No directly, but this line:
“but… beliefs were kept to themselves and not pushed on those around them.”
Implies that other migrants do not keep their beliefs to themselves and do push them on others…otherwise why bring it up?
P.s. I work,quite comfortably,with ,many Asian,African,Polynesian,German,French,English,etc. Migrants…so to label me racist is far from accurate…
You just wrote a shitload of racist crap. Hence, you are racist.
Kellii claim that because she “work,quite comfortably,with ,many Asian,African,Polynesian,German,French,English,etc. Migrants” she is not a racist is far from accurate and her own rants above the PS proves this.
I’m not claiming to know all the facts, politics and processes of the ‘Boat People’ issue, but if you remove all the bullshit, all the numbers and statistics – what you’re left with is simple, people in need of help. Who are we to dictate who deserve help and who doesn’t? I fail to see how people can be so unforgiving and without empathy, how would you like to be treated if it was you?. And lets be honest here, if it were a bunch of ‘normal’ white people in a boat with their blonde haired blued eyed children drowning as the boat sunk, it would be an entirely different story. I’m sick of hearing all these disgusting people crapping on about ‘Muslims’ and what they’ll do to ‘our’ country. Of course there are extremists, murders, rapers and just plain fuckheads in other cultures but we have just as many in our own so how can we turn away all the innocents because of ignorant fear? And all those who think they’re high and mighty, maybe take a good look at your family tree, this country that you claim is ‘yours’ and not welcome to asylum seekers wasn’t ‘yours’ to begin with.
Exactly. Unless you are Indigenous, you are a guest here.
Bullshit! I was born and raised here. I am nothing but Australian.
How hypocritical. You want to let asylum seekers in and then say we are all guests! If you are a guest then you have no right to say who comes in.
Its simple…as my folks and many did, come legally or fuck off!
My dad came here at 21, worked his arse off and helped build this country, these people don’t and never will have the same impact… sorry!
Seeking asylum is legal. It’s always been legal.
And “these people'”-who exactly do you mean? Asylum seekers come from many many different countries-all of them won’t make an impact?
Sounds like a racist? Acts like a racist? Claims to not be a racist? … You complete the pattern…
I love the argument about boat people jumping the line for “genuine refugees”. How much more “genuine” do you get than someone willing to risk their life and/or the life of their family for the chance of a better life? Must be pretty desperate to do that wouldn’t you think? Or is logic not allowed into this debate?
Look why not release them with an ankle monitor until it is determined wether their status is that of granted asylum or not & until that time these people can be free to work & contribute to the community, support their families & our government will be satisfied that they can be located when need be to either be documented or returned home!!! This way they are not subjected & further traumatised by prolonged incarceration besides a period for the necessary health checks & what ever else is absolutely necessary. …….. This isn’t ideal but it has to be better than anything going on right now!!!!
Leah how about ankle monitor on those on visa’s and if they overstay we can track to where they are hiding?
We don’t even need an ankle montior. All people on bridging visas have caseworkers, and department of immigration officials checking up on them. IF they change address without reason, they are breaching their visa conditions (Resulting in losing of work rights, study rights, and possibly even detention).
All of you Self centred arseholes, were obviously not around just after the second world war, when the world was swamped with displaced humanity.
Humanity that had seen the worst life could offer, and you stand there with all your potential advantages whinging about life not turning out right for you. Be grateful you live in this country and muster a semblance of decency and do honour to your forebears by respecting their signing the Refugee Convention.
They knew how close we came to sliding into a new dark age.You have benefited by by their sacrifice, do not throw them away, show some respect to your fellow man before you become fascists yourselves.
It’s called entitlement and the bogots have it in spades, and for no real reason. We are yet to see anyone of any presence to emerge from the sewers of social media racism and bigotry.
My family were forced to come here under atrocious conditions. As convicts they were the second wave of boat people to migrate to Australia,shackled in neck & ankle chains, the first wave being the Aboriginals, because they also migrated to this island.
Yes all , ALL Australians are descended from boat people. Argument = Null & Void.
‘The 837 asylum seekers who have arrived in the past week alone – bringing the total this year to more than 15,000 – are more than double Manus Island’s capacity.’ – The Age
I generally find blogs, websites preaching to the converted to be rather useless. Not sure where you copied the pretty charts from but your figures are off.
We find trolls who deny factual evidence to be rather useless.
Your factual evidence in the chart above is dated 2010 Someone needs to update!!~!
Look at this page a bit more. There’s plent of new evidence on this page. This is an old chart because….this is an old post, from 2011!
Naturally you’ll have evidence that, contrary to this article, Australia is receiving far more asylum seekers than they are visa overstayers, and that Australia actually is receiving far more asylum seekers than the US, UK, Europe in general, etc.
Excuse me! But that old crap of my being a guest because I’m not indigenous is a load of smelly brown, while I don’t agree totally with what was done in the past, it’s just that the past. I was born here and when someone screams racism without cause to speaks to me of an unintelligent yobbo whose travelling for an argument. I personally feel that if someone is desperate enough to face weeks at sea in a wooden coffin, they shouldnt be worried about detention centres where they get medical attention, 3 squares a day. Whilst the country they’ve invaded attempts to work out through the nightmare of political red tape in order to be offered a legitimate second chance. Those that do complain you’ve got to wonder if their plight is as serious as their making out.
Well if it is so good in detention centres why don’t you move into one? Remember these people have committed no crime yet are treated like criminals… worse in some cases.
Read the testimonies from psychiatrists and psychologists who have actually worked with these people – people like Jonathan Phillips, Louise Newman and Jon Juredeini. All eminent psychiatrists who have worked with people in detention.
Those who overstay their visa’s would be illegal, so why aren’t there any complaints from The Media and The Liberals and the likes of Cheryl regarding them?
Is it because they are hiding these illegals in their homes?
Cheryl do you mean 3 SQUARE MEALS a day? But you would no should be wondering if people like you can get any factual evidence, when you can’t even get your own comments right?
Cheryl, you are excused but don’t do it again. 😉
Cheryl thinks Asylum Seekers invaded Australia? I think this is called paranoid, which is what many if not all racists attacking Muslims have especially those from APP and AFP have.
That’s fair enough. I mean, if some people have been heavily traumatised by experiences in thier home country, fled for their lives, fearing constant deportations and threats from governments and groups, risk their life on a leaky boat….why not traumatise them some more?
It’s the same reason we take people who lost their homes in bushfires, and make them live on the streets. If they are desperate enough to leave the ashes of their old home, they should’nt be worried about sleeping on the sidewalk.
Armchair experts, armchair experts everywhere – look at all you armchair experts..
tl;dr
Reblogged this on It's Tagle. and commented:
Nice infographic on what is an ongoing issue in Australian politics.
My my, you all really don’t like anyone having an opinion that differs from yours.
I have neighbours on both sides of me who happen to be from the detention centres which gives me my views. One family is the nicest people you’d ever want to meet the other has the most revolting views on how they deem this country should be, if the father had his way all single mothers would be stoned to death, while the other is just greatful to be away from the horrors of what his family had to contend with. One demands our government owes him, the other feels gratitude.
Is it not wonderful that the country we live in has freedom of free thought. Your right I do think that some of these people are invaders whilst there are others coming on the boats that have a genuine reason for getting onto a floating coffin and its these people we should welcome with open arms. But we also have those with nasty and dangerously narrow minds that are caught up with politics from their home lands that should never be allowed to into the country and returned to face up to their mistakes. That is what the detention centres are for. To weed out the genuine from the not. And if they’re not return them home.
“My my, you all really don’t like anyone having an opinion that differs from yours. ”
Did you expect total acceptance? Part of having freedom of speech in this country means people can have an opnioion on your opinions. You do know that right? OR do you think freedom of speech means that everyone has to agree with everything that you, and only you, say?
“One demands our government owes him, the other feels gratitude.”
So….exactly like any other group in Australia. Some are grateful for government assistance, others complain it’s not enough. Sounds like the asylum seekers are fitting in well.
“Your right I do think that some of these people are invaders whilst there are others coming on the boats that have a genuine reason for getting onto a floating coffin and its these people we should welcome with open arms.”
Invader, really? How are they “invading”?
But we already have refugee determination processes, where people’s claims for asylum are assessed judged against the experiences and reports from this country, checked against others comments, to check for any inaccuracy.
If this is not sufficient, how do you propose we distinguish between “invader” and “genuine refugees”?
” That is what the detention centres are for. ”
And why is this a problem only Australia needs to do? I mean, France doesn’t detain people, England doesn’t detain people….why does only Australia need to detain people indefinitely without any possibility for release, even children?
We have plenty of home-grown people with extremist views, such as fundamentalist Christians, the far right of the Liberal Party and members of parties like the APP and AFP.
WE would love to deport all of them.
Cheryl what you have experienced with your 2 neighbors is not uncommon in the incidence of any migration group/assylum seekers/immigrants. those that complain & bring their old ways to the new country need to go back home, they are not progressive peoples & never will be, their feet are stuck in the mud with the “idea that single mothers should all be stoned to death”. But perhaps if they live long enough in their new home, perhaps some of our values will rub off on them.
One can only hope!
All migration groups have generational change, and all groups are different. The second generation migrant, who grew up in the country, are more integrated than their parents, and so on.
Incidentally, there are plenty of conservative Australians who have their feet stuck in the mud. But funnily enough, no one worries about them.
Canada’s short processing time is due to the fact that asylum seekers there arrive by aircraft with proper ID making the process easier.
I didn’t realise that Iraq and Afghanistan took a boat directly from their home countries – or is it they’re in a place where they’re not in any imminent danger and still don’t want to go through the proper processes to seek asylum in Australia because they know they can get processed sooner by paying a stupid sum of money to get on a dangerously leaky boat.
What countries are there that refugees from Iraq and Afghanistan can live safely, without risk of deportation or persecution, and settle, by being able to work legally?
And again, what is the proper process for an Afghani asylum seeker to apply for asylum in Australia?
The refugee debate is… Old. There’s no solution to this problem… Apart from maybe world peace, which lets be honest, will never happen. Krudd is simply doing what he can to get voted back in. Kinda selfish if you ask me.
I did a community services diploma at TAFE and there were (I think it was) 5 refugees in that class. They told their stories. It was heartbreaking. I used to have the old “send them back where they came from” mentality, until I heard those stories.
I guess there are a couple things I’m confused with.. Like what is the CORRECT way of seeking asylum? By plane? I honestly don’t know, if someone could clarify that for me I’d appreciate it. If the correct way is by plane, why don’t those going by boat, which is so unsafe, go by plane? After all the money they pay the people smugglers for that trip could surly fund a one way air ticket from the Middle East for example.
It’s a complicated issue.
Hi Jinky,
There is no proper way to apply for asylum or improper way. But, people who arrive on planes are generally better treated, and entitled to more support than those who arrive on boats. To give some examples, as long as you obey your visa restrictions, and the law, all asylum seekers who apply for asylum after arriving by plane, are allowed to work, access Medicare, and live in the community, outside of detention. It’s absolutely in their best interests to arrive by planes.
But, and ask anyone from a non-first world country about this for confirmation, the Government is highly skeptical of people coming to Australia, and resistant to give them tourist visas if they are concerned that they will never leave. My in-laws, who are from Vietnam, needed a written support letter from multiple family members, a health check, and a confirmation of home ownership in Vietnam to be allowed to come to Australia for their daughter’s wedding. My friends with Polish ancestry have stated the same situation applies for them as well.
When I worked with asylum seekers in Melbourne, the vast majority of applicants had arrived on student visas. Now, these visas can be easier to get than tourist visas, but they are much more expensive, and require a lot of preparation (English language tests, consultation between Australian education providers and local education providers). As a result, they tend to favour countries that have more infrastructure (Such as Pakistan or China), over countries that have little infrastructure (Afghanistan, Somalia).
Hope this helps.
Actually that helped me a lot. thank you for sharing your story. I cant belive they needed to confirm a home ownership. Thats appaling.
It doesn’t have to be home ownership, but they needed something to prove that they couldn’t live in Australia forever, and had an economic reason to return home. And they did arrive in the end, but didn’t apply for my brother in law to come with them, as he had very few reasons to return to Australia (No work, nor owning of a home).
What annoys me about it is how biased it is. To give a comparison, my sisters husband, and his family, are all English. English have a long history of overstaying, but needed no health checks, no credit checks, nothing, to allow them to come to my sister’s wedding. Other family members from Canada had no issues either. (That said, an English friend of mine who was offerred a sponsorship to live in Australia got an in depth health check when he applied for permanent residency, as the government was worried something may go wrong with his liver in the future. His response was “Firstly, I pay taxes and have paid taxes for a while to have medical coverage, and if it’s really a big problem I can just go back to England if my liver plays up and get it covered by the NHS for nothing!”)
Anyway, Mia, I’m glad I could help you. Being Australian born, and pretty much being able to go to any country I want without worrying too much about a visa means you don’t realise how hard it can be to come to Australia, even just as a tourist. Australia’s immigration system is better than most, in that it does provide clear pathways for study and skilled migration (Unlike the US-I read an article on immigration to the US which didn’t encourage illegal immigration, but stated there wasn’t a lot of other choices), and recognises and supports cultural diversity (Unlike European migration), but is still based on a culture of suspicion.
Hi Jinky,
There really is no one ‘correct’ way to seek asylum. There are many ways that are correct…and entering a country (by any means, with or without a visa or identity documents) and then claiming asylum on arrival is one of the correct and legal ways.
It is actually the most common way worldwide to claim asylum.
Compared to global standards Australia has very few claims for asylum.
Very few people actually come to Australia and then apply for asylum.
Until the past couple of years, most of the people who applied for asylum arrived by plain. (this is a method not available to people from certain regions of the world due to Australian officials not letting them on the plane here in the first place…).
Most of Australia’s humanitarian intake was made up of people who had entered another country and made a claim for asylum there, but then been sent to Australia for resettlement under the UNHCR resettlement program.
It is often said, incorrectly, that the ‘correct’ or ‘legal’ way to claim asylum is to go to a UN camp and be processed by the UN… but that method only accounts for around 17% of the world’s asylum claims, as it is not available to most asylum seekers.
The UNHCR process was set up to address the problems being experienced in countries such as Kenya, who receive huge numbers of asylum seekers and other displaced people, and who cannot realistically expect to process and resettle every one themselves. They simply do not have the resources.
So the UN process was set up so that wealthier countries such as Australia who receive very very few asylum applications would be able to help with resettlement of some of those people who the countries who receive the most applications could not resettle themselves.
It was never set up in order to let wealthier countries such as Australia get out of their obligations to process and resettle the small number of people who arrive here to claim asylum.
There are not many opportunities for asylum seekers to access UN offices to make a claim. There have only been 2 UN workers accepting and processing asylum claims in Indonesia. Even if an asylum seeker is able to find the UN office it can be quite risky for them to access it, as they risk arrest, detention and further persecution by Indonesian police if they attempt it.
However, a number of the people arriving in Australia by boat have actually already applied through the UN, and some have already been granted refugee status.
But have also been told that there is next to no chance of being resettled in a safe country if they remain in Indonesia.
So they have a choice of attempting to leave Indonesia and make it to somewhere (eg. Australia) … or… stay in danger indefinately (as in for decades or as it currently stands it may be the rest of their lives), where they risk arrest and jail if caught by the police, where they are not allowed to legally work, cannot access medical care, cannot legally rent or own a home, have no legal right to education for their children… or various other basic human rights.
Another method of claiming asylum is to apply directly to a country through an embassy/consulate.
I often see people online saying “why don’t they just go to any Australian embassy and do it that way?”
Well, it is a myth that a person can just go into any Australian Embassy and apply for asylum. Not all Australian embassies accept asylum applications, and this is particularly true in the countries where the majority of refugees are coming from or through.
It can also be particlarly dangerous to try to access a foreign embassy in some places.
If a person is at risk, then attempting to go to a foreign embassy can increase that danger greatly and can indeed be enough to see the person arrested and persecuted.
It is very very rare for an asylum seeker to be able to apply through an Embassy.
Another thing that many people miss understanding is that a person has to be outside of their own country in order to be able to make an application for asylum. They are not eligible for refugee status until they are in a foreign country.
So when Australians are claiming that a refugee should go elsewhere, to some other country and to a camp, and access the UN process… they are effectively saying “It’s fine for a refugee to be in some other less developed or well resourced country, it’s fine for them to go there without a visa, and for that country to have to deal with them… but they shouldn’t come to Australia”. Pretty hypocritical.
This is a handy little fact sheet from the Refugee Council about the topic of ‘proper’ channels.
The rest of it is good to read through also. 🙂
I think that anyone who genuinely is seeking asylum from persecution which would threaten their’s or they’re family’s lives should be given careful attention and assistance by our government.
However, I think that people who are simply queue jumping, who are possible criminals looking to escape justice and/or are into the people smuggling & slavery business(there is a large sex slave industry in Australia) as well as those who could possibly be terrorists attemtping to infiltrate our country(thus bypassing normal avenues of immigration vetting), should be interned and then returned to the ports where they came from.
How about putting up those percentages…..
Sounds paraoind? Check the facts, also, those who would be integrated into our country and way of life should be prepared to accept our laws, not try and apply they’re own once they’re given a new start.
1. There is no “queue”
2. The sex trafficking industry is run by locals, Australian nationals, not by refugees.
” who are possible criminals looking to escape justice”
We do security checks on all potential migrants to this country, including asylum seekers. These security checks, if anything, are too restrictive, resulting in people being held in detention indefinitely, because of a reason they’re not allowed to know (ASIO does not reveal findings).
“s(there is a large sex slave industry in Australia) ”
And this is largely come up through people on student visas, and temporary work visas. Do you have any examples of a criminal syndicate organising for sex workers to be moved into Australia by irregular martime arrival, when they know that if they have the money to spend they can organise for the slave to be sent to Australia much quicker through a student or temporary work visa?
“well as those who could possibly be terrorists attemtping to infiltrate our country(thus bypassing normal avenues of immigration vetting),”
But, here’s the thing. People who arrive by boat are not bypassing normal avenues of immigration vetting. They are subject to these procedures, just as all migrants are.
“How about putting up those percentages…..”
What percentages? Thep ercentages of boat people who turn out to be terrorists, or sex slaves? Easy-0%. Do you have any evidence to disprove this?
“Check the facts, also, those who would be integrated into our country and way of life should be prepared to accept our laws, not try and apply they’re own once they’re given a new start.”
Who exactly is trying to change the law in Australia? Please, be specific.
Lets look at new figures for 2012 instead of 2009 / 2010.
Australia should not be looking at what other countries r doing on this issue. Look at the huge problems Europe has with its Muslim migrants and the cost to the tax payer. We need to take control of our own problem. The crime rate has gone up to 40% in the towns were these people r realised. Such as Dandenong. We’re expected to work till were 67 years old. While most of these people will be out off work for many, many years . The r no low skilled jobs for Australians, with big job losses on the news each week. It’s a multi billion dollar problem that had cost over 1000 life’s . As a result of the Greens and the labor party.
Australia should not be looking at what other countries r doing on this issue. Look at the huge problems Europe has with its Muslim migrants and the cost to the tax payer.
You have just contradicted yourself. How dumb.
The crime rate has gone up to 40% in the towns were these people r realised. Such as Dandenong.
Proof?
We’re expected to work till were 67 years old.
Much better for your psychological well-being than sitting in the pub or hanging out at the TAB
The r no low skilled jobs for Australians
Then get off your lazy arse and get some training. Why should privileged people be handed stuff on a platter? Anyway whatever you’ve done since you left school obviously didn’t include spelling.
“We’re expected to work till were 67 years old.”
The admin has already pointed out the mistakes you’ve made but just wanted to put this out. Not only do asylum seekers not cause you to work until you’re 67, having more of them reduces your need to work until you’re 67.
The reason the retirement age is being delayed is we have a lot of people getting older, and we don’t have enough young people to take their place and finance their pension. No asylum seeker, young and eager to work, means that there will be even less finances available to fund the pension.
“While most of these people will be out off work for many, many years .”
The migrants coming here are eager to work, and will be encouraged to work and study, just as all people on the newstart allowance are.
May I ask with a humble heart, what is the benefit in making this dialogue available & visible. Reading and replying to all this misinformation is a horrendous waste of time for those who are trying to help a bad situation. Nobody unbiased logs in to read these discussions.
So why not just turn off the source??? Shut down the comments as they are just absorbing much needed resources. Let dissenters go to their friends to air their complaints rather than giving them the public pulpit they crave but have not earned.
Take care all and kindly learn to play nicely.
It gives normal people a chance to see the pinheads in action and to realise what drives xenophobia in this country.
Easy solution to cut costs is have the people posting on here complaining about how unfair it is to stop people coming by boat to have their direct pay reduced to pay for them 🙂 if you are so concerned about helping people, then set up a system to tax the people who are crying for them to be allowed in.
We could get rid of the racists and bigots and have a better country and far less strain on Centrelink.
Thats a cheap argument. The problem is the childish and immature responses by people like you. You cant even come up with a wiser argument then that.
Sounds fine to me. In return I would like that none of my taxes be used to pay for wars I disagree with, or the Australian Institute of Sport.
these numbers are from 2010. so the $340 mill spent on the 5600 boat people become $3 BILLION on the 50000 coming this year. that money should be spent on improving Australia, not keeping tabs on who comes here. stop the boats now!!!!
Well apparently Rudd’s strategy will stop the boats. So who are you going to hate next Dave? Asians who are 13% of the population? There’s always the Jews and Indigenous people as well.
Yeah your right it should be spent on improving ignorant people like you.
“Was Australian being swamped…” I think this needs to be shown as Asylum seekers per head. This would be a fairer comparison .. If I population of 25M has 10K compared to say the USA with 50K with 313M .. then the answer is yes. Also, I believe the issue with arriving by boat is two fold, firstly the lack of paperwork, those by air have passports and secondly the danger, these people are dying they need an alternative.
I think everyone needs reminding that the entire world is in this together and we all could have been an asylum seeker. We need to start taking care of each other and be more understanding. Alot of these people are escaping a life of pain and hunger. When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace…Who’d have thought jimi hendrix would get it so right. Open your minds and your hearts to the possibilities
I think they want to stop boats because people are dying on them. No-one seems to get that!
We are very cynical when the racists (and Scott Morrison) suddenly pretend to be concerned about asylum seekers drowning at sea when previously they were universally hostile to them. The hostility is still there – look at the posts on this thread. So is the confected concern.
Very good point.
I believe that if the people coming here are genuine refugees fleeing from a country that is in war or peril then they should be granted asylum. Who are we to try and judge what these people will do if they are granted permanent residence, just because a select few become welfare bludgers doesn’t mean they all will. I think we should do everything we can to help these people out to start a better life. I’m all for multiculturalism and believe Australia wouldn’t be what it is today without migrants. Where did we come from, if not as migrants from England, France, etc, and now we are turning them away. The people coming on those boats could’ve been your parents but instead we turn them away without a second thought and with NO opportunity of ever living in Australia? I think that’s wrong.
I agree with the sentiment, but some of the charts are very misleading. Look at the chart titled “was Australia being swamped by Asylum Seekers”. Now read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misleading_graph and see “improper scaling”. This makes the difference between Australia and the USA look far bigger than it is. There is a difference, to be sure, but there is no need for misleading graphics and overstating facts. Secondly, this graphic should be reporting per capita, not overall. I suspect that if both of these guides are followed the picture will look quite different.
It actually wouldn’t look much different. In terms of population, don’t forget that the US has over a million irregular immigrants from Latin American countries, principally Puerto Rico, Mexico and the Caribbean Spanish-speaking countries, who are not counted in the refugee and asylum seeker numbers.
here are some current (2012) stats about where Australia places on both refugees and asylum seekers using total, per capita, and GDP benchmarks.
The main issue is the cost – lets stop pussy footing around the massive amount of money we spend each year on this. I think when you consider the refugee crisis versus every day australians currently battling to make ends meet and the added stress on families, health, the current housing situation, high rental costs, the added difficulties many face getting into the market, as well as looking after our pensioners and their housing issues this is where the majority of Australians want their tax dollars being spent. There are also concerns about the number of refugees, not so much say in one year but when you compound that year on year then within 5years (which goes by pretty quick. Are our current governments sitting on enterprise that makes 300,000 new jobs each year? There are real bloody issues on the table, that has nothing to do with being ignorant, unitelligent, biggots, racist! Frrks sake –
“The main issue is the cost ”
Totally agree. And if we ended detention for all asylum seekers, beyond basic health and security checks, we would save so much money. Currently we are paying rent, bills, and three meals a day for asylum seekers who are in detention when we don’;t have to. It’s our irrational fear and racism which is costing us money, not asylum seekers.
The Pacific solution cost even more than the current detention scheme did, and the PNG scheme is likely to cost even more.
And again, there are problems in Australia, and almost all, if not all, are unrelated to issues regarding immigration. Let’s go through your problems:
” australians currently battling to make ends meet ”
Nothing to do with asylum seekers.
” health,”
Health issues are not any more overburdened by asylum seekers than they are the general population.
“the current housing situation,”
Asylum seekers are not impacting on the housing crises in the big cities anymore than any other group is.
” high rental costs, the added difficulties many face getting into the market, ”
Asylum seekers are no more able to get a house than the general Australian public, and have many things not working in the favour. Namely, no rental history. No work history. And little study history, at least in Australia. It’s quite hard getting a referee if you are a refugee, simply because you’re too new.
” as well as looking after our pensioners and their housing issues ”
Pensioners are in no way effected by asylum seeker intake.
“Are our current governments sitting on enterprise that makes 300,000 new jobs each year?”
Well, with more people entering the work force, this frees up the possibility for older people to retire (Reducing the retirement age, likely to be 70 by the time I can retire), allowing younger people do be promoted, and then allowing jobs at entry level to open. .
Also, migrants create jobs. I live in Shepparton, and let me tell you, there weren’t a lot of Afghani carpet stores, Afghani supermarkets, and Afghani restaurants prior to the settling of Afghanis in Shepparton. And this is nothing new-all new cultures create jobs.
“There are also concerns about the number of refugees, not so much say in one year but when you compound that year on year then within 5years”
Except, and this is not something I agree with, but something that does contradict your fear-the government has always regulated aslyum seeker numbers. They do this covertly (ie, when a largely scale refugee exodus occurs from one country, the government makes steps in finding reasons to dismiss the crisis in that country, as has happened with Sri Lanka, Pakistan and Afghanistan, and is happening with Vietnam and Iran), and overtly (As the number of asylum seekers accepted increases, the number of visas provided in other areas, particularly offshore migration, but other visas also, decreases).
I don’t like it. I don’t support it. But it prevents your fear of 300,000 new refugees every year.
our pensioners and their housing issues – most pensioners own their own homes. And they are not “your” pensioners. Stop trying to make political capital with them.
the current housing situation – an artificial shortage designed by developers and real estate agents to drive the prices up in capital cities where most people live. High costs – price-gouging of energy companies.
Are our current governments sitting on enterprise that makes 300,000 new jobs each year? – yes it’s called service industry and the more people here the more services (health, education, retail) needed
There are real bloody issues on the table, that has nothing to do with being ignorant, unitelligent, biggots, racist!
It has everything to do with being a racist bigot. And learn some economics before you try and argue with us.
Bingo
What? Did you just respond to the THE SALT, and ignore every post contradicting his statements?
I actually replied before I read your comments. You make good points also. Maybe there are cheaper ways of doing it. I’m not against helping people in need as.long as they really are and don’t bring more hardship on our country. We can’t be hardhearted but we also can’t be bad stewards of what we have and how far it will go. There has to be a happy medium.
I have concerns about the graph in the “is Australia swamped by asylum-seekers?” section.
While the number scale on the left seems fine, the area of the figures distorts the viewer’s perception of the numbers involved. We judge images like that proportionally, and the figure on the far left seems much greater than 5 times the size of the figure on the far right (the area IS far greater).
Please consider correcting the figures’ proportions to better represent the actual numbers.
Not our graphic to “correct”. Don’t try and dismiss what is presented there by criticising the presentation. The numbers themselves tell the story.
Why not look at the bigger issues here? Why do these people come here? Why are they being persecuted? Because of problems in their own countries that their own fellow countrymen have created.
The same people that create the problems in the country are the same people than then try to flee from it. And as sad as it is, it all stems from the religion they all practice, who’s archaic and hate filled values they then bring here and continue to practice.
In stead of integrating themselves into our culture, they segregate and create mini ghettos where they continue the same practices they did in the country the came from, except now they live of our Tax money, or get jobs helping the local insurance fraud scheme.
Instead of fleeing en-mass, they should gather and unite and affect change within their own countries. just like the French and Russians did.
To cut a long story short
“I don’t want refugees here cos I hate Muslims”
The problems in Iraq and Afghanistan were created by the US
Muslims cut off little girls genitals. Muslims beat and rape women and then jail them for having sex outside of marriage. Muslims give 9 year old girls to 50 year old men. Muslims consider all women inferior, dirty and no better than a dog. Fuck off Muslims and stay in your own country and kill each other. Don’t come here with your woman hating attitudes and your disgust at western values. Stay there and continue to shit over a hole in the ground you fucked up women haters. The U.S rocks!!!
IP Address: 123.2.113.114
ISP: Dodo Australia
Region: Perth (AU)
You lot don’t give a rats about women. Especially since you cannot get a date.
So there are problems in the Muslim community, particularly regarding women. Now, what does Rocco suggest?:
” Fuck off Muslims and stay in your own country and kill each other.”
So, you complain about Muslim marrying underage girls, worry about FGM, worry about legal restrictions on women, and arrest for sex outside marriage. All things that are far more common in Muslim countries than they are in Australia. And so because you worry about these things, you want women to be sent to places where they are far more likely to occur but you are less likely to see them.
So let’s not pretend you care about Muslim women. Or, indeed, any women.
As from July 26th my lawyer will be monitoring and viewing this site. She even tells me we may even be able to close this site down. After all the racist comments on this site, you “mindmadeup”, choose to make my email public. No one else’s, not one single person who has ranted on this page. Not the racists against Indigenous people or Asians. But me because I said some comments about Muslims . I have an opinion like everyone else in this world. If you don’t like it then I don’t care. I don’t have to like what you say but I wouldn’t make someones email and IPS address public. If you can’t take a comment then why are you on this forum. Like I said, this site from July 26th is under surveillance by my lawyer. And as ex military personnel I am obliged to follow through with any threat aimed against my family and my own security, including revealing my email address.
Rocco Andretti
As from the 26th of July this website will be under government surveillance. Mindmade up has made my email and IP address public so therefore I contacted my lawyer,my internet provider to change my IP address, and the Australian government.This website will be shut down once we have all the paper work in place.
Take down my isp and email address cunt or i will sue your fucking arse.
LIke I said my lawyer is going to fuck you up for posting my email and if that don’t work here’s an old family traditional gypsy curse for you. “annelnathrak delus petoot docyel diavendie.oosa bendi sokleno diavendie”. Choke on that!!!
” Because of problems in their own countries that their own fellow countrymen have created.”
Just for the record-is anyone allowed to flee their country? Because your rule of “People who flee their countries due to problems in their countries” kinda rules out everyone.
The Jews were fleeing problem in their own countries (Axis powers), because of problems their fellow countrymen (Hitler) was creating. Are we telling them to gather and unite and affect change?
“Instead of fleeing en-mass, they should gather and unite and affect change within their own countries”
Great idea. So let’s see how this plays out. You’re an Hazaragi young man in Afghanistan, working with your family. The Taliban make an incursion into your area and want to use you as a soldier/target practise (The planned treatment for all Hazara people in Afghanistan). Your parents can get together enough money to get you out of the country. What do you do? Fight against an army of Taliban, and die? Or get together other Hazara people, and get shot?
I look forward to your response. And I do hope it doesn’t show yet another person saying simplistically “Solve your own problems” while never actually having severe problems that others have to flee from.
“. just like the French and Russians did.”
Oh, I’m sorry-like the French and Russians did? This is your ideal response? Gullotines and genocide? Both of which lead to a large number of asylum seekers (Even in the 18th century).
well said..I don’t want that religion in this country on masse…ask the dutch and the French how its going for them with there big muslim intakes….not good I can tell you….the same hatreds and beliefs that create the problem in those countries are then brought over here…sure multiculturism is an ok thing done slowly and thoughtfully..now if I am a racist then so be it…..hey I don’t like some breeds of dog either even though they are all dogs…PC just goes to far sometimes, and the older and wiser I get I see the same folly from others I did when I thought I knew everything
and all people were nice to each other and it was all peace and love beads…then I grew up and 6the reality of life and the mad cruel things I saw and heard changed my mind. we are very primitive really and most of it comes from religion ….any religion and all religion…
Since you belong to that idiot group Ban Islam no doubt they’ve filled your head with their Nazi-style propaganda. That group is full of nutjobs, criminals and wackos. Do you really want to be associated with them?
Multiculturalism has been a part of Australia forever. Muslims in this country are a tiny minority and I doubt if you’ve ever seen one where you live. Use your brain and stop reading Murdoch papers and listening to Bolt and Jones.
“we are very primitive really and most of it comes from religion ….any religion and all religion…”
So, to be clear, you want to ban all religion?
“the same hatreds and beliefs that create the problem in those countries are then brought over here”
Have you ever actually met and talked with real life Muslims? I just wonder because like many people who complain about Islam, it’s common to have less experience with Muslims than they would Dinosaurs.
Some good points here also.
The image “Was Australia being swamped by asylum seekers?” is the typical way of statistic smoke and mirrors.
If you actually do the maths and work it out based on how many asylum seekers per 100,000 of the population and providing my maths is correct, Australia takes in twice as many as America.
It could be my maths is wrong, but here are the values, per 100,000 pop, America takes nearly 16, and Australia nearly 44.
Who counts by per 100,000 of the population? I mean, I literally can’t find any site that measures asylum seeker claims that way?
Instead, we can measure by total number of applications received (Australia is 33rd in asylum applications, South Africa is number 1), per capita (Australia is 41st), or relative to national wealth (Australia is 71st).
here are some current (2012) stats on where we sit compared to the rest of the world, and compared to other industrialised countries, in both total numbers, per capita and for GDP.
As for the checking – Captain Ahab [located with ease by Four Corners ABC-TV] apparently was cleared and funded by we taxpayers so he could continue people smuggling from within.
This week there is a TV program citing ‘even repeated rapes’ on Naru. We certainly should fast track these people – we need more rapists in Australia NOT. The locals call our buildings on Naru ‘club med’. These have just been burnt to the ground. Gratitude. BTW America fires at Mexicans illegally crossing their borders. Calling illegal aliens ‘asylum seekers’ doesnt wash with the good ol USA.
And your point is?
Calling illegal aliens ‘asylum seekers’ doesnt wash with the good ol USA.
I like to think we are better than the country which maintained slavery long after the rest of the Western world had abolished it, the country with regular school and college gun massacres, the country which invented the KKK…
We should not take our so-called “border protection” policies from the US. They are racist (just look at Arizona’s Nazi-style immigration laws) and lethal for people whose only “crime” is to cross the Mexican border.
Asylum seekers do not have to be “grateful” for being locked up despite not having committed a crime.
“This week there is a TV program citing ‘even repeated rapes’ on Naru. ”
What tv program is that?
Incidentally, all asylum seekers get security screenings before being released. No one ia arguing otherwise. And if any of them ever attempt a sexual assault, they are deported once convicted.
“BTW America fires at Mexicans illegally crossing their borders.”
And now they offer the Mexicans path to citizenship, because they realised their previous system of being hardline of immigrants wasn’t working.
Hi JM and Mindmadeup – thanks for fighting a difficult battle against the huge tide of boganism surrounding this subject; just a shame PNG isn’t big enough to send a good proportion of these ignorant, selfish pricks there 😦
The people of PNG don’t deserve those ignorant selfish pricks. A barren rock in the Southern Ocean hundreds of kilometres from real humans would be a good choice.
When they get here, give them enough petrol & food to get back. If they keep capsizing boats to soften our hearts, shoot the smugglers.
So would you have liked that treatment when you came out here for ten quid?
You weren’t in fear of your life were you – cold weather, rain. a Council house and the Tories don’t cut it compared to torture, rape and murder.
Given the massive problems in France directly due to the ever increasing Muslim population France would be the last place I would wishing Australia to like. There are so many “no go” places in France it makes a total mockery of the term multi-cultureism. There are many examples of abuse of the system and just one example is Mexico who have closed their borders to undocumented migration,from all countries other than the US. There they actively encourage illegal entry into the US while preventing access from poorer countries on its borders. .
You wouldn’t want to go to the banlieux of Paris anyway. Huge blocks of run-down concrete apartments. Any wonder the unemployed youth there are restless.
There are no “no-go” areas in Paris – in the Paris visitors would want to see.
I dont agree with extended processing times and detention. However, it must be pointed out that Australia is a very resource poor country in terms of water and food to sustain a growing population. Unlike Europe or USA our fertile land is a very small portion of the continent. Further to this if you asses the numbers a little further, there are 0.004545 asylum seekers for every Australian, yet in the USA there are 0.00015 per USA citizen (roughly, these numbers are asylum seekers/ rough total populations)). So there is effectively 30 times more asylum seekers per capita of our own population. QUestions are how does this effect our economy, social security, housing, homeless population (increase?) etc..
So it easy to make the numbers show a point of view.
I wish we could let all asylum seekers in immediately. They’ve suffered long enough, and took a huge risk in getting here. I hope we can do something to reduce their wait times, send back the fraudulent folk and welcome in those that genuinely need out help.
Excuse me-we are not resource poor in terms of food. I live in the frickin’ food bowl of Victoria, Shepparton-we don’t have enough people eating the food. We export a hell of a lot of food, something actually food poor countries (Such as China and Japan do not do!
Yes we need a better water management system, but we don’t have a problem with good.
Australia is 41st in asylum seeker applications on a per capita range, South Africa is number 1.
Like your post 🙂
Slanted statistics from people who don’t favour the govt stance on boat arrivals. If you stop and look and think about the stats some of it is quite obvious. E.g. Boats and plane surveillance costs more to operate then a car to investigate. Air arrivals only arrive in ones and twos boat people arrive with 50+ plus footage released by govt. makes for easier story.
Don’t be hoodwinked by slanted facts people!
” E.g. Boats and plane surveillance costs more to operate then a car to investigate. ”
And that’s the main costs, is it? Not the detention where we pay for all food and living costs everyday they are in detention?
“Air arrivals only arrive in ones and twos boat people arrive with 50+ plus footage released by govt. makes for easier story.”
Except that’s not the argument the article is making. It’s not saying “Which group of asylum seekers are easier to turn into a story”-it was showing which group do we get more of. And asylum seekers arriving by boat are significantly outnumbered by those arriving by plane.
True, we may only get a handful of asylum seekers by each plane. But we get a lot of planes coming to Australia everyday!
Net number of boat people is a meaningless statistic. It’s like saying India is a rich country because it has the ninth largest economy. How about showing the numbers per capita…? Australia is second in the world – much more generous than your propaganda suggests.
Not as generous as your lack of evidence suggests.
All I would like is a more extensive infographic or data set which gives the CURRENT statistics as well as per capita information to allow me to do other comparisons.
I hope I don’t wind up being abused or harangued by people for asking for the facts.
I also hope I don’t ever need to claim asylum, but if I do I hope I am treated fairly and in a timely fashion.
Can anyone point me to a reliable source of the type of data that allows for a picture of the scope, cost and relative importance of the current situation to emerge. I would obviously prefer sources which try to present the issue without seeking to colour my view.
To be well-informed seems to be a reasonable starting point for developing an opinion.
Hi.
Here are some 2012 stats, including where we sit in totoal number, number per capita and GDP.
I hope that helps 🙂
Also, the stats you included show the number of refugees ‘hosted’ by a country i.e. the place where refugees TEMPORARILY reside… Another completely meaningless stat. Of course Australia ‘hosts’ less refugee compared to most country – we’re an Island and not land-locked in a war-torn location. The resettlement numbers tell the real story.
Please get informed.
If you’d like another interesting stat I suggest you look up how many refugees are still on unemployment benefits are 5+ years.
There are > 12 million displayed refugees around the world. Are you suggesting we take all of them? If not, you have not moral authority on this issue – we are simply arguing numbers.
I’m done with this propaganda website.
PS. I just had a brief skim through your link to the UNHCR 2009 Global trends dossier that you linked, here’s an interesting quote (found under ‘Resettlement’ p12):
“During 2009, a total of 112,400 refugees were admitted by 19 resettlement countries, including the
United States of America (79,900), Canada (12,500), Australia (11,100), Germany (2,100), Sweden
(1,900), and Norway (1,400). Overall, this was one quarter above the total for 2008 (88,800) and the
highest level since 1995 (134,100).”
Divide those number by the countries population and see what numbers you get…
“If you’d like another interesting stat I suggest you look up how many refugees are still on unemployment benefits are 5+ years.”
Just on this point, it’s interesting to point out that this shocking article was only applying to groups who had been effected by the Howard Government’s Temporary Protection Visas. These visas:
-Did not grant permanent residency, discouraging employers from employing refugees after arriving (Employers don’t want someone whose visa is not secured)
-Blocked access to free English language classes all other refugees are entitled to.
Again, why are we counting per head of population-surely the monetary wealth of the country is a better example of capacity to look after refugees than population number?
“There are > 12 million displayed refugees around the world. Are you suggesting we take all of them?”
Why is it always the case of “You want to help people-but you can’t help all of them!”-this is a nirvana fallacy. Of course we can’t assist them all, on our own, immediately, right at this second. No one is saying that.
The report was published in 2011. 5 years before 2011 was 2006-when we had TPV’s in place (Only getting rid of them in 2008).
And the key restriction, as this wiki page shows, is that those on TPV’s could not access free English classes, unless they were a child:
This page also shows that those on TPVs had to reapply for their visa three years later, in case the situation in their home country had changed. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temporary_protection_visa
Try and find a job in those circumstances, tell me how you go. Try and find a job while being unable to speak the main language, and not being confident you’ll still be in the country three years later.
Good to know. 🙂
I agree baggins,
This is nothing but a propaganda site, and anyone who challenges or disagrees with what you’re preaching are put down and cursed at or labeled racist, it’s disgraceful!
If you want to put your point across “mindmadeup” do it with something that has some substance, not by misleading people with 5 y/old stats, if you want a relevant discussion please provide relevant factual information.
This country does have a serious problem with border control and illegal immigrants and anyone who believes otherwise is simply mislead and misinformed. Everytime an illegal boat arrives, it cost Australian taxpayers on average an unbelievable $12.8 million. That’s money that could be invested in infrastructure to grow our economy or used to reduce our taxes by paying off our $7 billion in interest we owe. Australia comes first, then the rest of the world.
Back up your $7 billion figure with proof or it is just a brain fart.
Since no one is going to invade Australia in the foreseeable future, “border control” should mean quarantine to keep out human, animal and plant diseases and keeping out illicit drugs.
We have a customs service and Federal Police for that.
It does not mean hiding behind the sofa because we happen to have a lot of non-white non-Christian people coming in the vast majority of whom are immigrants with skills and qualifications this country needs
“anyone who challenges or disagrees with what you’re preaching are put down and cursed at or labeled racist, it’s disgraceful!”
I have not sworn, nor called anyone a racist. I presented contrary data, as has Ali. However people tend to ignore it.
“Everytime an illegal boat arrives, it cost Australian taxpayers on average an unbelievable $12.8 million. ”
Source for that. Any?
“Australia comes first, then the rest of the world.”
And how exactly are you making Australia a better place?
“Everytime an illegal boat arrives, it cost Australian taxpayers on average an unbelievable $12.8 million. ”
Source is Today Tonight, forget reality.
Um you kind of insinuated I was racist 😦
No, you said you weren’t racist because you had a Peurto Rican husband. I told you that didn’t mean anything.
Yes but you still insinuated I could be like Hitler and have friends of other races but still be racist… if you weren’t implying that what were you implying?
All I was implying was what I was saying-having a partner of a race doesn’t suddenly mean you can’t be racist, anymore than having non-white friends suddenly means that you can’t be racist.
It seems, rather than me insinuating anything, you were insinuating that your fearful comments directed towards the Mexican comments couldn’t possibly be racist because you have a puerto rican husband. But you were also showing that you thought your comments could be considered racist if not for that (Hence the “I don’t want to sound racist here….”).
So I put it to you, that you only mentioned your husband because you are aware that your feelings about Mexicans do come from fear, ignorance, and racism, but rather than deal with these issues yourself internally, by challenging them, questioning how they are not hateful and divisive beliefs, you instead tell yourself “But I don’t hate my husband, therefore I am not racist”
If you were not insinuating this, please tell me why you made the following comment:
“I’m trying hard not to be or sound racist here, maybe if I mention I am married to a Puerto Rican it may help that,”
I think its because these are only words here, with no tone of voice or body language to add to the meaning so it can be misinterpreted that way…plus nobody knows me personally so that can add to the confusion. I hope I am not racist truly it is hard to really know or judge that myself let alone someone else who knows nothing of me to judge it…maybe a comment may sound that way but I truly don’t want it too. I apologize if I came across that way.
hhhmmmmm, here’s what comes up in diversity training. Everyone has judgements and beliefs based on race. To try and not have them is very hard, and leads to trying to find easy ways to excuse those behaviours without actually having to change them (“I have an Asian friend-I don’t have to be worried about being racist now” for example).
However, what isn’t impossible is knowing what those judgements are, realising you have them, and bear them in mind when making decisions. This not only prevents an underlying racist belief, which can be harmless if controlled and understood, into an overt act of racism, which will hurt many people; it can also help slowly break down the underlying racist belief.
For example, when I moved to Shepparton I was wary of African youths, because where I lived we didn’t have a large African community. If I passed them in the street, my heart would start beating heavily, and I started moving a bit faster. So I explored that belief, asked myself why I felt that way, realised it was based on nothing, and ignored those feelings. I still had them, but I didn’t let them change the way I acted. And because I wasn’t letting those feelings control me, it allowed me to open up my life to include African colleagues, clients and friends. Suddenly they didn’t seem so scary anymore, and the underlying fear begins to dissolve.
Everyone can do this. Find out what your underlying fear is, and it’s not about language, it’s about having a lot of Mexicans in one area. Find out why you feel that way-and decide whether this is a feeling that actually benefits you and is based on reality, or if it is an instinctive response based on fear. You can’t always block your instincts, but you can be aware of them, moderate them, and stop them from overly influencing your actions.
JM I’m not scared of Mexicans, I have a lot of good friends that I lived near/next to and worked with who were Mexicans. Just like any other group of people, some were rude and obnoxious and some weren’t. Australians have long held a certain opinion of Americans in general and I don’t think I need to spell that one out. Maybe you did, don’t and/or no longer hold that opinion and I’m glad if you don’t cause there are a lot of great people in this country who contradict Aussie’s opinion of them. I’m still working on my own family incidentally :-/….anyway…the only thing underlying my opinion on them as a whole is my experiences with them over the 8 years here and the inside info I have heard and read about along the way. I do think I need to reconsider how I feel about them as a whole and about their true effect on the societies they live in, you and Ali and others have made good points I hadn’t considered before and I appreciate that and plan to discuss it with my more informed and intelligent husband who helps me form a lot of my opinions. 🙂
“I’m not scared of Mexicans, I have a lot of good friends that I lived near/next to and worked with who were Mexicans. ”
But at the same time, you talk about them “Invading” “Taking over” and state they need to “Eat, dress and look like Americans”-how is that not a fear?
“Just like any other group of people, some were rude and obnoxious and some weren’t. ”
But you’re distinguishing from Mexicans in particular. Why? Are they any more prone to rudeness than anyone else?
“the inside info I have heard and read about along the way. ”
But sometimes, as you say, that inside info is coming from racist people who may not be telling the truth. I mean, you’ve brought forward a few absolute hoaxes about welfare benefits and taxation of illegal immigrants-I’m pretty sure you got them from someone who was not telling the truth.
Yes, but if you look at the amount we take per head of population, we come out on top. It is simply not fair to put the worlds refugees as Australia’s problem.
I am not arguing with you.
Just want to see the evidence for your assertion regarding the per capita ranking of Australia from a reliable source.
If you have evidence which contradicts this I look forward to seeing it.
I look forward to Dan evidence, that is not from The Media such as Today Tonight and News Ltd papers to prove his claims is the truth?
But people like Dan and confused has proven no matter how much evidence you give them, they still won’t believed it, as it doesn’t agreed with the BS they get from say Today Tonight.
It is a waste to provided even more evidence to someone like Dan, when he doesn’t even believe the evidence above in picture and numbers form.
And lack of research, memory lost there and you don’t care Dan, when it comes to people being killed and injured by Non-Islamic people and groups like The IRA, Real IRA, ETA, Red Army, UniBomber, etc etc etc?
PS You should speak to others like from Loose Change who wants to make money at the expense of people deaths, as these nutcases think there was no hijacked planes it was just a Hollywood effect and explosions laid by those from The USA Government.
Having a tumbleweed moment there Baggins/ A.C./ Mangwell and co? You have the updated stats you couldn’t be arsed to get yourselves and now you fall silent.
Why don’t you address the issue instead of placing blame on Asylum seekers for all the problems that Australia have because I’m getting a little tired of the repetitive rhetoric re money, economy, population and covert religious indoctrination etc. They are not the issue and you are throwing up sand to try to hide the obvious.
There, you have the stats right in front of you in black and white from 2012. Disembowel it and undermine it at your leisure but I anticipate that you will find that this is evidence is from a credible source. But hey, continue on peddaling your propaganda pantomine if it helps to validate your own fear of asylum seekers. (If we really cared about people and cost, we would do the sensible thing and process these people onshore). And it’s saddening to know that instead of addressing the issue, our leaders have elected to criminalise the most needy people of this world and I say the most needy because last year, our own officials found that 90% of people that asked for help via boat were found to be genuine. 90% of these people were found to be genuine, a vast majority. So with the facts in place, why the hell are we shutting the door on them when we already take advantage of loopholes in the system to try to get out of helping asylum seekers such as excision.
I didn’t elect a government that would shut the door on 100 desperate people for fear that 10 of them ‘might’ not be as desperate as we would have liked them to be. Our fear rules supreme indeed. This is a cop out. Stats or no stats, we have failed to maintain a promise that we made to help and protect the most displaced people of the world and it’s frustrating to know that our bogots are being pandared to.
Hats off to you JM and MMU for fighting the good fight.
More good points. Thank you
“lies damn lies and statistics” – Yes the USA looks big on the graph. Then again it has a population, and a GDP, of more than 10 times ours. I’m not saying this to defend the current situation, just to highlight that these “cute” diagrams don’t really present a strong case.
Then read the figures and do your own spreadsheet. If you don’t like the presentation we charge for our services.
…and just look at all the problems France has with its multiculture!! Look beyond 8 days I say!!!
France’s “problems” with multiculturalism started with its less-than-savoury colonial past, extended to jumping into bed with the Nazis in WWII and selling out its Jews and the Maquis to the Gestapo and continued through the late 20th Century and beyond as various right-wing politicians raised fears of firstly the Algerians then an assortment of non-Gallic citizens including Roma, others from its former colonies (black people and Asians) and lately Muslims. Sarkozy managed to get a great deal of political mileage from the handful of Muslim women who wore religious dress until the French finally saw through him and voted him out.
ironically France was also a home for many African-American performers who relished the freedom they had, including the freedom to enter mixed-race marriages, compared to the racism they encountered back home. It seems that cultural appreciation trumps mindless racism even in ethnocentric France.
Any communal conflicts at the moment are fuelled by the activities of the likes of the neo-Nazi Front National and the tendency of the mainstream right of French politics to race to the bottom any time an election is in the offing.
So if you want to believe Marine Le Pen’s lies then go ahead and look like an idiot.
Your figures are completely bogus. The number of people arriving in Australia to claim asylum jumped by more than a third last year to 15,800 people, driven by an increase in arrivals from Sri Lanka, Afghanistan and Pakistan. Australia resettles the third largest number of refugees of any country per capita, but actual Australia’s asylum seeker numbers, while politically sensitive, remain numerically small. The United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR) says Australia receives about three per cent of the total asylum claims made in industrialised countries around the world and, “by comparison, asylum levels in Australia continue to remain below those recorded by many other industrialised and non-industrialised countries”. Remember per head of poplulation Australia take more than any other country.
Whose figures?
Nice cut-and-paste from right wing blog Catallaxy
Umm, did you read your comment before you posted it? your unsourced comment:
““by comparison, asylum levels in Australia continue to remain below those recorded by many other industrialised and non-industrialised countries”. ”
I’m glad we can agree. Asylum seekers are not swampning Australia at all.
Yeah I’d agree. People forget that our population is only 24 million, and we don’t want that to be made up prodominantly of refugees. Good call Rauf lala, you hit the nail on the head.
“People forget that our population is only 24 million, and we don’t want that to be made up prodominantly of refugees.”
Which there is literally no chance of happening. Seriously-our main source counties of migrants, not refugees or asylum seekers specifically, but all migrants from 2010-2011 were:
New Zealand,
China,
United Kingdom
India, and
The Phillipines
These numbers are fairly consistent over time as well. Now of those countries, only China has any significant number of asylum seekers arriving.
Here’s my source: http://www.immi.gov.au/media/fact-sheets/02key.htm
So your fear of Australia being predominantly made of of refugees is about as likely to be realised as a fear that australia is to be made up predominantly by Unicorns.
I came by this forum and have been following the debate – I though it was interesting and on the whole, well conducted. Until I got to the comment by Rocco, which is astoundingly ignorant and offensive. But it was the response by mindmadeup that made my jaw drop. Wow. Outing someone’s private email and ISP address on a public forum. Despite the forum conditions stating that your email is never made public. What a bully. It’s a shame when someone responds to someone else’s bad behaviour by dropping into the gutter with them. The internet is full of trolls and haters, but I have never, ever seen an instance like that. It should result in automatic exclusion. Why didn’t you or the moderator just block them? Shame on you, mindmadeup. And don’t bother responding, I’m not coming back. This is an unsafe space, despite the fact that I’m on the same side of the debate that you are.
1. We don’t play nice here where racists and bigots are concerned.
2. “Just blocking them” means they think they have won. That’s how their tiny psychotic warped minds work.
3. Not coming back? Meh.
Yeah how about I post your email fuckhead. Whatever happened to free speech? Don’t bother sending me emails coz my lawyer has got that account and she’s looking over it and seeing if we can sue your arse for false advertisemnet and trolling..Put your private email up and see what happens you wimp. And by the way your comment about me not getting a date is so laughable. I happen to love women and I love my wifes genitals coz she still got her clitoris, not like many poor suffering Muslim women suffering at the hands of their prick husbands. So go ahead make my day motherfucker. I didn’t go to Iraq for nothing. I went to fight for freedom for all women of Islam,and freedom from Muslim fuckwits that want to stop the western way of life!
Explain this than mind made up. I used to live next to a suburb that had taken in a lot of refugees, I was delivering a flyer for a local event and I noticed that all the letterboxes in the street and most of the streets for that matter, were smashed, vandalized or missing. I spoke to an older lady who was doing some gardening and she said that she saw the people vandalize the letterboxes, but she didn’t think that there was much she could do, because she did not want to become a target. She said that ever since the refugees settled in the neighborhood they have stolen things and in large groups go around vandalizing property such as letterboxes.
These are refugees, this is where I used to rent.
So you take your crime statistics from little old ladies? Did you think of speaking to the police or were you after confirmation bias?
The response that I got from most people was that there was nothing that they could do. The lady I was talking to has enough marbles to know what was happening she was probably about 70 or so, quite a capable lady, I knew exactly who she was talking about. It’s like they owned a section of the neighbor hood. The lady said to me that if she says anything people will call her a racist. This is whole letterboxes destroyed for no good reason. They smoke marijuana openly on the street. They come from a vastly different world. I’d like to have some follow ups on how refugees do settle in.
“The response that I got from most people was that there was nothing that they could do.”
Wait, she has a direct view of the people committing a crime, but can;t do anything? not even file a police report?
” The lady said to me that if she says anything people will call her a racist
She goes to the police, says “I saw people destroying letter boxes-and can describe them. I’m fairly certain whereabout they live” and she’d immediately be called racist now will she?
Listen, I’ve only had to report people, thankfully, twice to the police. And both times while I did mention skin colour (Slightly tanned, and white in case you were wondering), no accusations of “Racist!” were made.
“They smoke marijuana openly on the street. ”
And the reason you didn’t tell the police this is…..why? I mean, it’s not just refugees that smoke marijuana.
“They come from a vastly different world. ”
No, i’s still Earth. Unless….you have alien refugees living in your neighborhood? You should definitely let someone know that.
” I’d like to have some follow ups on how refugees do settle in.”
You could ask them. Just a thought.
I mean seriously, your complaint seems to boil down to: “Refugees are committing crimes, and while I know who they are and have an eyewitness, and police could easily come and intervene, but I can’t be bothered making a police report so…..I’ll just state that all refugees are criminals instead and judge an entire community on the acts of a few, not bothering to try and find any alternative information”
I’m not sure what the stats are on the total refugee and migrant population in Australia… but you may be interested to know that asylum seekers in Australia are 43 times LESS likely to commit a crime than the general Australian population.
Yep, that’s representable. So all refugees are criminals because one street he lived on had one reported case of letter box vandalisation, and this started after asylum seekers turned up. This is absolute proof-refugees are all criminals. To hell with criminal statistics-Dan has one case study.
How about I give you another, that should bolster you…unless you read it. Where I live, in Shepparton, some residents have noticed an increase in crime. They’ve noticed bricks being thrown in through their windows, their family being threatened, their house being robbed repeatedly, and there was even one case of a sexual assault. and this only happened after refugees moved in.
Sounds convincing….except the person being robbed was a refugee, the person having their windows smashed was a refugee, the person having their family threatened was a refugee, and even the woman being sexually assaulted was a refugee. And the perpetrators….angry white teens, and their families.
So now with you one example of mail box vandalism proving all refugees are criminals, and my example of three separate families being harrassed by local families upon arrival presumably (according to your logic) proving all white people are criminals, presumably everyone should be arrested.
I await sentencing.
One case? They were causing problems all the time. Fights with other locals at night, literally taking over areas of the suburb.
I was about to call the police with one fight at night that thankfully resolved itself, but I ended up moving not long after.
“Fights with other locals at night,”
Gosh. Sounds shocking. It’s a good think literally no Australian born resident has ever had a fight at night, right? No one, in the history of Australia has ever had a fight outside a pub or nightclub until refugees turned up, right?
” literally taking over areas of the suburb.”
You mean figuratively. Unless you’re honestly telling me rather than yuo choosing to move you were kidnapped and planted in another suburb.
“I was about to call the police with one fight at night that thankfully resolved itself, but I ended up moving not long after.”
So there are people causing problems in your area. You know them, see who they are, and are ready to call the police, but because ONE fight resolved itself, you did nothing, and instead moved later on while complaining that “ALL refugees are criminals”.
If, when you move, you’ve got white neighbours, who smoke marijuana on the street (As many people irrespective of their skin colour do), vandalise property (As many people irrespective of skin colour do) and have fights with locals at night (As again, many people irrespective of skin colour do) will you again just move, rather than calling the police, and start to complain that all white people are causing problems.
And stuff you ignored:
1) So now with you one example of mail box vandalism proving all refugees are criminals, and my example of three separate families being harrassed by local families upon arrival presumably (according to your logic) proving all white people are criminals, presumably everyone should be arrested, right?
Here’s an article you might like regarding refugees and crime. I mean, it’s not second hand testimony combined with your own correlation-as-causation interpretation (Next up-“I’ve noticed since refugees have moved into my area-the winters have gotten warmer. Refugees therefore control the sun!”), but it’s a good read nonetheless: http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/2732220.html
Yeah sure, I’ll read your article, I really am interested in what the statistics have to say.
I really look forward to a response to this, because for a lot of us who have seen problems of resettled refugees first hand, all this talk is a bit hard to swallow. Sure some of them might be nice, and it might be a new life, but what about communities that live in fear because of large groups of refugees that are basically causing problems. I actually did not go in certain areas because I did not feel safe, I am not kidding.
We’d prefer refugees as neighbours – I had an Afghan family near me and they used to look after our place, feed animals etc when we were away.
I would not have trusted any bogots to do that.
Delete my IP and email address cunt or i will find you!! I didn’t go to Iraq as a cook. Do you understand what that means dickface!! I will find you and don’t believe I won’t. I have friends in very high military places that know their shit and can hack into anyone’s life and fuck it up. So delete it cunt or you will go down!!!!
Like I said take down my email and IP address or my lawyer will fuck you over
” because for a lot of us who have seen problems of resettled refugees first hand, ”
You didn’t see it first hand. You heard it from someone else, and then drew your own conclusions separate from the report. This is at best second hand.
” Sure some of them might be nice, and it might be a new life, but what about communities that live in fear because of large groups of refugees that are basically causing problems”
And what about large group of Australians that are basically causing problems? Sure some Australians may be nice, and just trying to get along, but others harrass and abuse. Surely we need to get rid of them too, along with those trouble making refugees.
This is what’s called white privelege, Dan. You have it. I have it, but at least I’m aware of it. It’s the assumption that everyone who is white is “normal” and isn’t responsible for what anyone else who is white does, but at the same time expecting all non-white people to be held to account for something that any other white person does.
As Alanzo Bowden says “A White guy sees a police car go past he wonders what happened. A black guy sees a police car go pasts he hopes that nobody who looks like him has done anything wrong”
Do you think that’s fair, Dan? Is it okay to expect all non-white groups to be held accountable for whatever an individual of this group does, while not holding ourselves to that same account?
” I actually did not go in certain areas because I did not feel safe, I am not kidding.”
What places? What places didn’t you feel safe? What made you feel unsafe? Did you have any rational reason for feeling unsafe? Think about this for a second-the problem may be your perception rather than reality. For a long I couldn’t walk on the same street as a dog for a fear of dogs-that does not mean that all dogs are evil and should be got rid of-it was my own fear that was the problem.
Living in a town, Shepparton, with a large Aboriginal, African, Afghani and Iraqi population there isn’t a single place I don’t feel comfortable, including a mosque. Having previously lived in Melbourne, I can say that same for there too.
I understand what you are saying, there are good and bad in all races and groups, I think that to say Refugees are great and we should take more completely ignores some of the very real problems we have seen with Refugees.
Look at other countries where the refugees are rioting and taking over Australia does not have to copy the rest of the world, we are out on our own in the Southern hemisphere, we should really learn from some of these other countries.
” ignores some of the very real problems we have seen with Refugees.”
What problems? As you’ve said there are good and bad in all groups-what evidence do you have that refugees are any more prone to crime than any other group in society?
“Look at other countries where the refugees are rioting and taking over ”
Good thing Australia isn’t another country then, isn’t it? That’s what gets me about you-you’re so eager to ignore the many differences in different countries, trying to see Australia somehow as England 20 years ago, or some crap like that. You’re probably talking about Europe, but Australia is not Europe, and our view of multiculturalism has always been different. In fact, many European nations are looking at us to wonder how we got it right.
We have had migrants in Australia longer than other countries, and in greater numbers. We are not an experiment waiting to turn into Europe, we are an experiment that has already succeeded.
“Australia does not have to copy the rest of the world, we are out on our own in the Southern hemisphere, we should really learn from some of these other countries.”
So…we shouldn’t copy other countries, but we should look at what they’re doing? Don’t see the contradiction here?
Australia is different. It is beautifully different-our idea of multiculturalism is not as strict and repressive as France, nor as laissez faire as England. There is an understanding that we are a nation of migrants which encourages a welcoming atmosphere.
And we’re not alone. New Zealand is also a nation of migrants.
I’ve never been to Shepparton, I have a friend who works as a police officer in Melbourne though and he has some strong opinions on immigration and refugees as he has to go around arresting them. His words to me “should have never let any of em in”.
Now I’m not a racist person, I have a good mate that is Asian and I play soccer with a guy that is African, however I think we should all look at things purely objectively. Some of these refugees are committing serious crime.
“His words to me “should have never let any of em in”.”
Great, well that’s representative. One racist cop beats any overview.
As I mentioned before, I have had three families report to me experiences of assault, threats and violence because they are not white. These attacks were perpetrated by white people. If we are judging all migrants on the crimes of a few, should we in turn blame all white people due to the crimes of a few?
“Now I’m not a racist person, I have a good mate that is Asian and I play soccer with a guy that is African,”
Okay, let’s just stop here. If you start thinking “I can’t be racist because I have a non-white friend” just remind yourself….so did Hitler. I have met the most racist people who were sure they weren’t racist because they had one token non-white friend. I’ve known people who call for the murder of all Muslims, but they can’t be racist because they had sex with a Japanese woman once.
You are judging an entire community on the actions of the few who commit crimes, judging by their skin colour (Because let’s be honest-you didn’t check people’s visas, you have no idea if they’re all refugees or not). How is that not racist?
” Some of these refugees are committing serious crime.”
And they should be arrested, which they could have been if you ever reported it to police!
So should non-refugees who commit crimes. In fact, call me crazy here, but ALL people who commit serious crimes should be arrested.
So….why the particular focus on refugees? Why do we need to focus on their crimes any more than we do anyone else?
“I have a friend who works as a police officer in Melbourne though and he has some strong opinions on immigration and refugees as he has to go around arresting them” this is known as hearsay: noun 1.
unverified, unofficial information gained or acquired from another and not part of one’s direct knowledge:
If there are cases of unprovoked assault of refugees, then I agree with you, that is terrible and something should be done about that.
I look at countries like Japan and Korea who have not had to take in significant non Asian refugees relative to their population sizes.
I think that Japan and Korea are smart, the people recognize the importance of maintaining their national culture and ethnic majority Japanese, and they are doing well because of it.
Now look at a place like the Netherlands, Sweden, Germany, England, France. Nobody can say that Refugees have been a success in these countries. They have riots there all the time.
Then look at the United States over the past 200 years. They took in a lot of refuges and they seemed to do ok.
“If there are cases of unprovoked assault of refugees,”
There are. It’s not an if-it’s a case of “there are”
“I look at countries like Japan and Korea who have not had to take in significant non Asian refugees relative to their population sizes.”
They are countries with deeply entrenched racism, and a problem of a greatly ageing population with no solutions. They aren’t doing particularly well, compared to Australia (Major economic crises over the last few years). And they have had no strong history of migration.
“importance of maintaining their national culture and ethnic majority Japanese, and they are doing well because of it.”
How exactly is the national culture not being maintained?
“Now look at a place like the Netherlands, Sweden, Germany, England, France. Nobody can say that Refugees have been a success in these countries. ”
Multiculturalism has not worked in those countries, because it was a very one-sided multiculturalism “We’ll accept you being different-as long as you’re the same”
And things you ignored:
1) – If we are judging all migrants on the crimes of a few, should we in turn blame all white people due to the crimes of a few?
2) – You are judging an entire community on the actions of the few who commit crimes, judging by their skin colour (Because let’s be honest-you didn’t check people’s visas, you have no idea if they’re all refugees or not). How is that not racist?
3) – ALL people who commit serious crimes should be arrested.
So….why the particular focus on refugees? Why do we need to focus on their crimes any more than we do anyone else?
Ok there are cases of unprovoked assaults on refugees and I agree, that is terrible and needs to be addressed.
So when it comes to crimes by refugees it’s “We need to question whether we have refugees” and blaming the entire community for their acts.
When it’s a serious case of threatening behaviour, physical and sexual assault, and robbery by white people, it’s “Well it needs to be addressed”?
Why the differentiation? Why do refugees all get targeted by you for the crimes of a few, but white people are each judged individually?
I’ll repeat these all again, shall I:
1) – If we are judging all migrants on the crimes of a few, should we in turn blame all white people due to the crimes of a few?
2) – You are judging an entire community on the actions of the few who commit crimes, judging by their skin colour (Because let’s be honest-you didn’t check people’s visas, you have no idea if they’re all refugees or not). How is that not racist?
3) – ALL people who commit serious crimes should be arrested.
So….why the particular focus on refugees? Why do we need to focus on their crimes any more than we do anyone else?
I disagree, I think that Japan and Korea are doing well, and I believe that part of that reason is because they maintain their ethnic integrity of their countries in that the founding race is maintaining it’s majority, and it works. They have low crime rates.
Sweden, low crime rates, add refugees and now some areas are not safe. Netherlands same deal. Immigration and refugee intakes need to stay in control to work. When they are in large numbers for the population, then it fails.
Yeah good crime rates there Dan from the Media or facts? “Sweden, low crime rates, add refugees and now some areas are not safe. Netherlands same deal”.
“I disagree, I think that Japan and Korea are doing well, ”
The Japanese government disagrees with you:
“Many towns have developed international centers where opportunities are developed and supported, creating contexts for interactions between local residents and foreigners such as a monthly English dinner hosted in the town where I have done fieldwork for several years.
Government officials have often explained to me that one of the goals of these initiatives is to create contexts in which Japanese people can interact, and thus become more comfortable with, foreigners. ” http://thediplomat.com/2013/02/03/japans-demographic-disaster/
The UN also disagrees:
“A study by the UN Population Division released in 2000 found that Japan would need to raise its retirement age to 77 or admit 10 million immigrants annually between 2000 and 2050 to maintain its worker-to-retiree ratio.[8]”
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aging_of_Japan#cite_note-c-8
But I’m sure you can tell me exactly how they’re doing well not having any immigration, and with an ageing population likely to make up almost 40% of the population by 2055.
“the founding race is maintaining it’s majority, and it works”
The Japanese aren;t rthe founding race of Japan. The Ainu are. And again, if it works so well, why is the Japanese government trying to change things so to reduce the dependency on the elderly population.
“. They have low crime rates.”
Yes, Japan has a murder rate of only 0.4. It’s tiny. South Korea on the other hand has a murder rate of 2.6.
You know who has a lower murder rate than South Korea? Immigration loving New Zealand, Canada, the UK, and even Australia. (With rates ranging from 1-1.6). Hell, even Japan’s homicide rate is actually higher than other countries that allow diversity, such as Singapore (38% population are non citizens, murder rate of 0.3), and Moncao (Where the native group are actually a minority, murder rate of 0.0).
So…I don’t think Japan’s low crime rate has to do with their founding race maintaining its majority. And it doesn’t work, according to the Japanese government. But I’m sure you know better.
“Sweden, low crime rates, add refugees and now some areas are not safe. ”
Sweden’s homicide rate is lower than South Korea’s, and is actually the same as ours.
“Netherlands same deal.”
Netherlands homicide rate is also lower than South Korea’s, and only slightly higher than ours (1.1 to our 1.0).
” Immigration and refugee intakes need to stay in control to work.”
Well it’s a good thing that all immigration intake has always been in control. Always has been. So, what are you complaining about?
” When they are in large numbers for the population, then it fails.”
What number is acceptable to you? Please tell me. I’ve got to know-when do you start going “Right-we’ve got too many brown people”.
And more stuff you ignored:
1-How exactly is the national culture not being maintained?
Yeah good crime stats from the USA lol. Might have something to do with the ethnic make up of the place.
So, now Dan, who is totally not racist, is stating that america has a problem with crime because it’s got a mix of people.
Naturally he’ll have evidence of this, and not just be saying, in a totally non racist way, that all non-whites do is cause trouble.
Dan, I hate to labour the point here, but how exactly are you not racist? You are blaming an entire community on the crimes of the few, and now you are stating that America’s crime rate, which you haven’t checked, is entirely due to having a mix of cultures.
How is that not racist?
I already said, I have a friend who is Asian and I play soccer with a guy who is African, I don’t see myself as overly racist, I’m just stating what I observe.
All right let me spell it out to you.
HAVING
NON-WHITE
FRIENDS
IS
NOT
AN
“I CAN’T BE RACIST”
GET-OUT-CARD
Especially since one of them is not a friend, just someone who you play soccer with (Your differentiation not mine). Hell, Hitler had asian friends-you telling me he;s not racist now?
“I don’t see myself as overly racist,”
Guess what? Neither would a racist.
” I’m just stating what I observe.”
Guess what? Racists do the exact same thing. They say what they observe, translated through their own skewed vision of the world where difference means trouble.
I’ll repeat myself, shall I:
Dan, I hate to labour the point here, but how exactly are you not racist? You are blaming an entire community on the crimes of the few, and now you are stating that America’s crime rate, which you haven’t checked, is entirely due to having a mix of cultures.
How is that not racist?
America has a mix of cultures agreed?
America’s crime rate is significantly higher than ours per head of population agreed?
Oh, so it’s a correlation, therefore it’s the truth. Her’es another correlation
Criminals don’t like reporting crimes to police. Agreed?
You repeatedly do not contact police about crimes. Agreed?
Or another one:
South Korea is not as diverse as Australia, the UK, New Zealand or Canada-agreed?
South Korea has significantly higher murder rates than Australia, the UK, New Zealand and Canada-agreed?
I’ll repeat this question again, shall I?:
Dan, I hate to labour the point here, but how exactly are you not racist? You are blaming an entire community on the crimes of the few, and now you are stating that America’s crime rate, which you haven’t checked, is entirely due to having a mix of cultures.
How is that not racist?
What do you want me to say? That I am a racist person and I hate all people of other races?
The truth is I don’t, I just don’t think it is sensible to take in heaps of refugees based on living in a suburb with refugees and my friend who is a police officer has to put up with the trouble they cause all the time.
Give me a hot girl from any race and I will give her a go, I’ll work with anyone from a different race, I’ll make friends with anyone from a different race.
What do you have to say about people who were born here who commit crimes?
What do you have to say about immigrants and refugees that don’t commit crimes?
Police get paid and trained to deal with difficult people, including racists and bigots.
Immigrants overall have lower crime rates than Australian-born people. Crime is largely a problem of males behaving badly, whatever ethnic or cultural group they are from.
And we don’t take much notice of people who come here and spin yarns about “my friend the police officer”. Police are not allowed to discuss operational matters with civilians, even members of their own family.
“What do you want me to say? That I am a racist person and I hate all people of other races?”
That’s your problem. You think it’s either “I am totally 100% not racist” or “I got out and hate everyone whose different”
Racism isn’t 100% one way or another. Understanding racism to start off with, is understanding that it is judging an entire race based on their race. Which is exactly what you’re doing here.
If anything, the subtle racism you’re demonstrating-not of direct aggression, but subtle demonisation and blame is far worse. When a guy screams racist messages at a stranger in public, everyone knows he’s wrong, and will support the stranger. The person whose hatred is subtle will prevent migrants from getting jobs, houses and opportunities because “They’ll ruin the area/cause crime, etc”
“I just don’t think it is sensible to take in heaps of refugees based on living in a suburb with refugees and my friend who is a police officer has to put up with the trouble they cause all the time.”
I repeat-crimes are committed by all types of people, in all types of community. Why the focus on refugees? You had a bad experience with some people you think are refugees (Again, you didn’t check their visa so you don’t have a clue!), and heard some second hand testimony from a few people that confirmed your biases. From this you think we need to punish all refugees for the crimes of a few (possible) refugees.
I got beaten up in the street once by two white guys. No hearsay, no second hand testimony-I know who they are. Am I allowed to blame all white males for crimes now and think we need to be careful about how many white people we let into the neighbourhood? No, of course not. Because I’m white, they’re white, and part of white privilege is seeing all white people as not responsible for the actions of their community, but not seeing all non-white people as responsible if any crimes are committed by anyone who vaguely is connected to their community.
“Give me a hot girl from any race and I will give her a go, I’ll work with anyone from a different race, I’ll make friends with anyone from a different race”
You are living in denial of how racist you are. Would you really be friends with someone of a different race? What if they wanted you to come over to their house? What if they lived in an area where a lot of people looked like them? Would you still maintain the friendship and share their life, or end the friendship because, as you said, going into areas where there is a large number of people of own culture intimidates you?
How exactly would you maintain a relationship with a woman if you honestly think that if too many people of her culture come in, crime will rise? How exactly would you work well with someone if you think that people from their culture are more likely to vandalise or commit crimes?
It’s easy to talk the talk. But what’s hard to do isn’t just to walk the walk, but start to question yourself and find out why you’re worried about doing the walk. And that’s what you’re refusing to do. It’s easy to say “I play football with a black guy”-you don’t actually have to check yourself to see if you have any racist beliefs, and feel you can do whatever you want. What’s hard is to actually question yourself, find out why you think the way you do, if it is justified, and then control your thoughts.
It’s hard, but here’s a question to start. It’s a question I asked many many times over and over again:
“You are blaming an entire community on the crimes of the few, and now you are stating that America’s crime rate, which you haven’t checked, is entirely due to having a mix of cultures.
How is that not racist?”
Look at this question. You made those comments-think about them. How exactly are they not racist comments? How exactly are they not blaming an entire group for problems without any evidence? How exactly are they not blaming an entire group for the actions of a few? How are they not grouping an entire group together based on skin colour?
To lighten the mood a bit, here are some quotes about using “I can’t be racist-my best friends are X” defense:
“It’s a nonsensical argument if you think about it, ‘I’m not racist, I’ve got black friends.’ You might as well argue ‘I’m not a murderer, some of my best friends are alive!’ And if you try arguing ‘I’m not a pedophile, some of my best friends are kids!’ you’ll probably make things worse for yourself.”
Sean Lock
“Bert McAnny: What? Now, Green, don’t get me wrong. Why, some of my best friends are Jews.
Anne Dettrey: And some of your other best friends are Methodists, but you never bother to say that.”
Gentlemen’s Agreement
You can see the tvtropes article for many many more examples. Or just google “I can’t be racist I have black friends” and see the many many people who aren’t convinced by that.
What I was saying is that I don’t go out of my way to be nasty to people of other races. Would it help if I told you that I had a short relationship with an Indian girl?
Nope, it wouldn’t! Here’s a website filled with very racist guys who want to have a relationship with Asian girls. Very racist against Asians-still want to date them:
“What I was saying is that I don’t go out of my way to be nasty to people of other races.”
So you’re not overtly racist. You just write online that diversity leads to crime, and blame all refugees for the crimes of a few. That’s so much better.
Because you’re immune to sarcasm, I’ll explain it out to you. Suppose instead of telling you you’re an idiot who doesn’t belong in australia, I don’t tell you directly, but tell people online, tell complete strangers, and tell everyone else I know who isn’t you that you’re an idiot who doesn’t belong in Australia.
Would I be allowed to say at the end that I don’t have a problem with you?
I’ll say this again:
“Dan, I hate to labour the point here, but how exactly are you not racist? You are blaming an entire community on the crimes of the few, and now you are stating that America’s crime rate, which you haven’t checked, is entirely due to having a mix of cultures.
How is that not racist?”
I can’t believe this, I’m talking about refugees. I helped an Indian class mate with some study and one thing lead to another and we kept meeting up for study for a few weeks. She wasn’t one of the people vandalizing letterboxes and getting into fights. She is not even of the same race.
Having said that, I worked with an Indian guy who was an absolute bastard and was very racist towards me because I was a white Australian. He would go on about how we were convicts and how we stole the land from the Aborigines and how Australians are lazy and all sorts of stuff.
White people did steal the land from Aborigines.
Believe it. Again, Hitler had Asian friends. Are you trying to tell us that Hitler isn’t racist?
“I worked with an Indian guy who was an absolute bastard and was very racist towards me because I was a white Australian. He would go on about how we were convicts and how we stole the land from the Aborigines and how Australians are lazy and all sorts of stuff.”
So, to be clear, blaming an entire community due to the crimes of a few is wrong….if it’s directed at you.
Let’s go through beliefs step by step, shall we:
1- You blame all refugees for the crimes of a few.
2- Your Indian guy blame all white australians for the laziness of a few.
The second is totally racist and evil, right? But the first, according to yo, is a-okay?
Do you not see the contradiction here?
And to repeat myself:
I’ll explain it out to you. Suppose instead of telling you you’re an idiot who doesn’t belong in australia, I don’t tell you directly, but tell people online, tell complete strangers, and tell everyone else I know who isn’t you that you’re an idiot who doesn’t belong in Australia.
Would I be allowed to say at the end that I don’t have a problem with you?
And again:
“Dan, I hate to labour the point here, but how exactly are you not racist? You are blaming an entire community on the crimes of the few, and now you are stating that America’s crime rate, which you haven’t checked, is entirely due to having a mix of cultures.
How is that not racist?”
Another false claim from Dan so others can oh dear he is not racist, as he knows people from other countries? “I have a friend who is Asian and I play soccer with a guy who is African”.
But reality is just because they are Asian and African does not mean they are Asian and African, they would be Australians like Dan.
It’s interesting that Dan doesn’t consider the African soccer player a friend. I mean, he specifically on two occasions wants to point out that they’re not friends, they only play soccer together.
Speaks volumes, dunnit?
I don’t really feel comfortable talking about this.
Good. Not being comfortable is the start. You’ve been going through life saying “I dated and Indian girl, I’m friends with an Asian guy, I acknowledge a black guy at soccer-I’m totally free of all racism now and can start blaming all refugees for any change in crime rates”
That’s a very comfortable belief. Because being racist is not a nice way to see ourselves, but at the same time, it’s easier than waiting to judge people individually. So finding a way to judge people as a group without having to feel racist is so very very comforting.
If you’re beginning to feel uncomfortable, it’s a start.
I just don’t feel comfortable talking to you about people I don’t know very well like the African guy on my soccer team. I just wanted to say that If I was racist, I wouldn’t play on a team with a black guy, but I do play on the team and our team is going well, so I don’t want to talk any more about that.
Why are you spamming the blog again?
No, you can play on a team with a black person and still be racist. The racist part would be telling all your friends that the black guy in your team was a criminal because he was black. In other words, all black people are criminals.
Even if the guy was a criminal, the racist part is the generalisation and if you can’t spot one then you’re not too smart.
” I just wanted to say that If I was racist, I wouldn’t play on a team with a black guy, ”
Hitler had Asian friends and worked with them on a team. Are you saying Hitler isn’t possible racist-yes or no?
The KKK were fine with black people….as long as they knew their place. Are you saying the KKK isn’t racist-yes or no?
Racism isn’t determined by how many friends you have, what skin colour a girl you dated has, or anything like that. It is determined by what you do, think, feel and say.
You have said that the crime rate in America is caused by its diversity (Ignoring the fact that other diverse countries have a lower crime rate than other monocultural countries). How exactly is that not a racist statement-blaming crime on an entire group you know nothing about?
You have also expressed concern about refugees because you’ve experienced crime from some people you think may be refugees. How is this not racist-to judge all refugees as a risk in terms of crime because of a bad experience with a few?
But of course ColinH the “cute” claims from the racists sourced from the media such as a Today Tonight really present a strong case?
Pauline ( we will be swamped) Hanson was the most effective politician of her time. She unplugged the bottle and out came the real Aussie spirit, and an industry that is diverting funds which should be spent on Health and Education, but instead goes overseas to Serco. One of the bigger corporations in the world. Among its operations are public and private transport and traffic control, aviation, military and nuclear weapons contracts, detention centres and prisons and schools.
The Hanson /Howard /Abbott phenomenon in Australia is not unique, and highlights the vulnerability of the fragile Australian multicultural society. Who will be targeted next?
We have a responsibility to assist those persons and communities who are now undergoing traumas and who arrive dispossessed and homeless, powerless and vulnerable. They deserve our help and support, not contempt or hostility.
There is a shadow smuggler by air route that could not operate unless certain people look the other way and others who provide “Genuine Visa’s” supply overseas agent and folks simply fly in the front door and disappear.
But this noise keeps your attention on this pitiful mess.
We wonder also whom the haters will turn on next if Rudd’s plan somehow succeeds.
You can’t delete my posts “mindmadeup”. Like I said from the 26th of July this website will be under observation from my lawyer. She tells me we may even be able to shut this website down. You made my email and IPS address public. If you were smart you would know that you have not one legal leg to stand on. Each member, including yourself will be monitored and watched. I may have made some comments that you did not like but I read comments from you that I did not like. You have no legal right to make my private information public so I will not comment on that further except to say my lawyer has instructed me to wait until she has conferred with the Australian lawyers society WA,.upon where you will be hearing from her and myself shortly..
Rocco you should get together with your lawyer and work out what is the company name you can think up?
As you called it Australian lawyers society WA but she called it Perth Law Society.
Now take me to court for telling the truth, which is based on yours and your so called Lawyer own comments.
Rocco,
In calling it Australian lawyers society WA are you referring to The Law Society of Western Australia?
Because if you are, they are not a business or a company where you can legal help as such, they are professional association for Western Australian barristers and solicitors.
cunt
As from the 26th of July this website will be monitored by my lawyer. Mindmadeup made my email and IP address known to the public. This is gross misconduct and anyone using this sight will be monitored and checked. Just a warning.to those of you who think they are above the law like mindmadeup.
Dear Sir or Madam my name is Karen Walker, lawyer for Rocco Andretti. On July the 23rd my client posted a comment on your website regarding Muslims. What my client said may have offended you, but Australia is a country where free speech is allowed. You took no consideration and deliberately put my clients well-being in danger. I viewed older posts and comments from other members, and discovered that in no way were my clients comments as offensive as some of the ones I came across, and yet you did not make their information public. In no way do I support my clients views, however I do support the laws in place that protect a member of the public’s right to have their information kept private. Your administrator posted my clients email address and IP number, and according to your site no email would be made public, and yet you did this. This is illegal. My client has received death threats and hate mail. I will make it clear to you. Take down my clients email and IP address and I will not take this matter further. Your member “mindmadeup” was responsible for this illegal act. You have until Monday to comply otherwise this matter will be taken to the Federal police and your website will be subpoenaed. I have instructed my client to not visit your site again. All contact will be made through me at this email address.
Thank you
K. Walker LLB MACS
Hello kit. I was wondering, where in australian law is internet anonymity protecteed? Let me know the act.
Pretending to be a lawyer is an offence anyway. Especially when you use a false name.
CRIMINAL CODE ACT COMPILATION ACT 1913
Chapter LIII — Personation
510. Personation in general
Any person who, with intent to defraud any person, falsely represents himself to be some other person living or dead, is guilty of an offence which unless otherwise stated, is a crime; and he is liable to imprisonment for 3 years.
513. Uttering qualification etc. of another
Any person who utters any document which has been issued by lawful authority to another person, and whereby that other person is certified to be a person possessed of any qualification recognised by law for any purpose, or to be the holder of any office, or to be entitled to exercise any profession, trade, or business, or to be entitled to any right or privilege, or to enjoy any rank or status, and falsely represents himself to be the person named in the document, is guilty of an offence of the same kind, and is liable to the same punishment as if he had forged the document.
While we’re at it, why does the perth law society not have a website?
Because there is no such organisation. Just like the only person who is “Rocco Andratti” is a character in a bodice-ripper.
A Law Society is a Professional association for Western Australian barristers and solicitors.
So The WA Law Society would interested to hear someone is using their part of their name and claiming it is a private company.
“In no way do I support my clients views, however I do support the laws in place that protect a member of the public’s right to have their information kept private”
I can see what happens in court, apart from their own client comments being used as evidence.
“I represented Rocco, but I don’t agree with they claim that is in public and against the law”
Next case.
I know LLB is The Bachelor of Laws, but what is MACS?
As one of the things I founds for MACS was for a Macintosh, no Bachelor courses.
K Walker should check the law yes Australia is a country where free speech is allowed, but not allowed where the free speech is against the law and causes offence to others.
Don’t trouble yourself Keith, they got their “legal knowledge” by getting stoned and watching old Law and Order episodes.
It is sad that Australia is exposed to negative opinions of asylum seekers. The people of Australia have no time or education to develop there own beliefs on the situation. These ‘boat people’ are legal asylum seekers. They are coming from countries where they fear for their lives or are persecuted. This is not limited to war. Many people who leave there home country do not make their way to Australia immediately. Many asylum seekers can take 8 years, from the time they leave their country to the time they arrive in Australia. They are NOT queue jumpers. Many of these people do NOT have the money or papers to enter Australia. Many of these people are poor and/or are escaping hardships. What gives us the right to then put them into ‘jail like’ detention for days, weeks or even months?! Obviously there needs to be a a better and more successful way to process these people instead of sending them back or leaving them in detention centres (Obviously not all ‘boat people’ are Asylum Seekers, but we need some way to process this instead of blatantly refusing them all). These people are HUMAN. Why do we prevent them from having a better life?
What is with people necroing posts on this site?
1. This one may have been found by a web surfer – it seems to have gone viral. All good.
2.Some people are bored or they are hoping that responding to old posts will slip past the admin.
Not a chance! 😀
I feel very lucky I was born in Australia and not some war torn one. Since there are people who are born into those kinds of countries, it doesn’t mean it is ok for them to stay there. They have to have some place to go!
There is something wrong in this article, please update it because it looks very weird!!
On the 3rd picture, you’ve stated that there is 53.900 overstayers and also that there is 5600 boat people. But, on the 4rth picture you’ve done a calculation to show how much was spend in total for those 2 categories(overstayers and boat people),a calculation done with a wrong value for the total number of Overstayers…
—-> you’ve calculated 10.000 x 12.000$ instead of 53.900 x 12.000$, which make 646.800.000$
I’m not good enough in political subject to see if it was done on purpose by you for any reasons, but it’s kind of unique to see such a mistake 🙂 10.000 and 53.900 are very different numbers 😉
We did not draw the graphics. They are from another source.
no, the graphic is correct, you’ve just misread it.
There are 53,900 overstayers… but only 10,000 of those are processed (the rest are allowed to carry on in Australia unhindered…).
Therefore the corrrect figure for spending on processing is 10,000 x 12,000
Then, apoligies to you mindmadeup 😉
So if you’ve found let’s say a picture showing a dead palestinian chidren in the arms of her mother, but it happened that in reality this picture is a total fake, you will accuse the source instead of having double checked the source? (exemple: http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2012/02/03/is-this-photo-of-an-israeli-soldier-pointing-an-ak-47-at-a-palestinian-girl-real-or-fauxtography/).
Your Avatar is a brain with working synapses, and you don’t check the values used in your source, and frankly, it was not hard to see, and I can tell you that my brain is not full of flashing lights synapses like yours 🙂
Seing that the source is from the Australian governement itself, shows one more time that Australia is fucking racist(beside Mad Max) 🙂
Peut-etre
When I say racist, I talk about the country’ politic, about how immigration is dealed with in general(with ratios and quotas made on what Australia needs the most at a given moment) Chosen immigration is not good(France did that in the 60’s, and now there is a lot economical and social problems) it makes disparities, create ghettos, and fuel the fire of white racism. Treating people as assets, like France did, shows off a heartless(soul-less) politic, I hope for Australia that they will not get what got France in result of bad spirited people political choices….
Why can’t they just be put on a plane and turned around. A lot of them aren’t interested in our way of life and its just a free ride.
Lee and what about those who overstay their visa, should they be put on a plane or high in your place?
Hide not high.
When comparing Australia with other countries it should be considered that we have a much smaller population than most of those mentioned in your graph. .. which means our economy has a far more limited capacity to absorb the impact of an influx of unskilled workers.
Your statistics show that already immigration accounts for the majority of Australia’s population growth. There is a factual necessity that the number of migrants be capped somewhere. Otherwise there would be serious ramifications socially and economically. We have already seen that the kinder the government, the more people will attempt to seek asylum. We should have a sensible plan for the future when considering asylum seeker policy. The unfortunate fact of life is that we cannot take on all who desire a better life, and we must plan wisely in order to provide a decent life to those whom we can take in.
And yes, plenty of other countries take in proportionally more refugees than we do… but there is enormous poverty and social unrest that comes with that.If you want to relax the border policies, then be realistic about what we can provide. Every country in the world (whether rich or poor) with a large influx of refugees has slums or areas of immigrant enclaves with high crime rates, high unemployment and crowded housing. Australia would be no different.
Come one marym tell us which of the following is the truth?
You visiting every single country in the world rich or poor to see if they have a large influx of refugees with slums or areas of immigrant enclaves with high crime rates, high unemployment and crowded housing?
Or like the other racists you are talking crap?
To maryn> Why are you assuming that every person that seeks asylum is “unskilled” ?!? How racist is that? Man(or Miss), there are people very qualified(more than you and me) in way poorer countries than yours and mine, or from countries where there is a war going on. I don’t say that every asylum seeker is an engineer, but some are, as some are “just” human and can easily learn on the spot or simply go to school. What would be Australia without immigration? You certainely would not have been there if there won’t had any, 200 years ago! Being australian and being cold(like against) toward immigration is sad for such a young country, almost selfish, and completely illogical 🙂 Just a reminder for people who still got a heart, and want to do something good, something big to go on march(manifest, create facebook pages,….) for: The world famous Victoria Open Market is build on an aboriginal cemetary! Please, let the world know!….from wikipedia:”… there still remain approximately 9,000 people buried under the sheds and car park of the Queen Victoria Market. Every time work is carried out at the market, bones are disturbed.” HOW BIG IS THAT!!!!
…the number of people arriving by boat is now at a rate over 40,000 per year, meaning a huge strain on society and setting ourselves up to create a social underclass for future generations. Also, has anybody asked how many refugees countries like Japan accept? Why does Australia beat itself up so much when we are a reasonable country trying to do our fair share?
I am confused you seen to be against refugees with numbers you made up, even those the real numbers are up top “…the number of people arriving by boat is now at a rate over 40,000 per year, meaning a huge strain on society and setting ourselves up to create a social underclass for future generations” and for Australia having refugees “when we are a reasonable country trying to do our fair share?”.
Which one is it?
What is wrong with some?
They make up numbers even those the real numbers are in front of them?
Was Australia swamped by seekers? Would rather see this in proportion to our population size instead of raw numbers. And while were manipulating the numbers to show what we want, how about the ratio of seekers to land area?
Why do we need by population size? Are we saying “We have a small population, therefore we need to take fewer people, while those countries with a huge population, who are overcrowded already need to take me”?
But anyway, rant over-here are the population figures for 2012-
We come 16th out of 44 industrial countries for asylum seeker claims, and 29th for refugee intake.
On the space ship earth, there are no passengers, only crew!
Nice graphic, but it’s based on 3 year old data. People are looking at it as representing 2013 and naturally things have changed since 2010.
They haven’t changed that much. proportional and comparative data is around the same.
The important point to grasp is that relative to what is occurring elsewhere (such as asylum seekers streaming daily into Turkey from Syria or the dire situation in Pakistan) Australia has very few problems – except for the over-population of whining intolerant xenophobes who hate brown people and who think millions of refugees are paddling up the Nepean River.
Well, if the stats in this article are correct, then boat people would be silly to try and land on Australia. There seems other countries that it would be better to try and land on. The boat people among my friends, have told me that they picked ther country of arrival, by which was the easiest to get into. They chose a country that wouldn’t give them refugee status, but would put them into camps which would allow them to apply to other countries to get refugee status. (This was over 20 years ago though, so the process may be different now).
The general rule for asylum seekers in the current day is those who can arrive in planes do arrive in planes. Those who can get to safety on land, do get to safety on land, and those who cannot get to safety except by boat do get on a boat.
We have two obligations here.
1. to accept those GENUINELY seeking asylum.
2. To our general population .
Our birth rate is 1.87, with net migration it is 4.3. The replacement rate is 2.1. Growing at this pace is not good for the development of our cities. I think we do need to slow down our population growth. Perhaps we should cut back immigration in other area’s rather than focusing on boats.
Another thing, true asylum seekers seek asylum regardless of the induction policy of the country they go to, so long as it is safer than the country they are fleeing. Looking at historic statistics, I see the bulk of arrivals being dictated by the speed of processing and nature of policy, I think this is dishonest to the true nature of an asylum seeker, and in this respect, I’m not against stringent polices, so long as those that do arrive here are processed fairly and within a reasonable time frame.
“Looking at historic statistics, I see the bulk of arrivals being dictated by the speed of processing and nature of policy,”
How so?
The number of asylum seeker arrivals to Australia has always been in line with global statistics and trends regardless of our domestic policy, and has always aligned with expected fluctuations due to known ‘push factors’..
“The UNHCR Regional Representative for Australia, New Zealand and the Pacific, Richard Towle, has pointed out in the past that further destabilisation of countries such as Afghanistan, Iraq and Sri Lanka, would inevitably lead to more people seeking asylum in our region regardless of national border protection policies or changes to migration legislation.[13] More recently, Towle has argued that this continues to be the case:
… the higher number of people taking dangerous and exploitative sea journeys is a symptom of the grave human insecurity that refugees face at home and the risks they are compelled to take to find safety for their families. It is no coincidence that most boat people come from Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran and Sri Lanka – places that are suffering, or have recently emerged, from long periods of serious human insecurity.[14]” http://www.aph.gov.au/about_parliament/parliamentary_departments/parliamentary_library/pubs/bn/2012-2013/boatarrivals
you said it... 
Thanks for the perspective!
Seconded by me. Great graphics & stats.
Wonder how we compare to Lebanon and Jordan and Turkey considering the Syrian refugees fleeing that lands “civil” war?
It would be interesting to see what the actual rate of acceptance vs. rejection is. It’s all good and well to say that France has 48,000 odd applications for Asylum with a detention time of less than 2 weeks but if 45,000 of those applications are rejected in less than 2 weeks you would need to question the methods used in processing.
Would you prefer a half assed approach rushing through applications to save time or would you prefer to wait 200 days knowing that your application was given the best chance to succeed on its merits.
If I was to guess I would say those 8 days are mostly medical assessment and basic admin (taking details, deciding on which community they will be transferred to etc). After that they would be free to do what they please but would have to maintain regular contact with a case officer. The time inside the detention center would have very little to do with the end outcome of their claim, if they are needed after being released they can be found with fairly little cost or effort.
I haven’t done any research to see if this is what they do but it would be the logical/humane/cost effective process to use.
That’s kind of what I was hinting at. Comparing the time in detention between countries like France and Australia is a little unfair without providing the details on what this time actually includes.
I believe you are right in saying that the 2 weeks would be mainly medical and admin duties and from a (very brief) Google search it seems that once an application is made in France the seeker is granted a visa from between 3-6 months in which I’m assuming further investigation is done (I could be wrong). Whereas the 200 + days in Australian detention would include such investigation before a visa is granted.
The problem with allowing Asylum seekers to be integrated into the general population before a decision is made is that it allows them to build a connection with a life that they might have to give away within a few months.
Could you imagine what it would be like to be living within a community, starting to make friends or be with family then have the Immigration department reject your application. The hope you had been giving is torn away and it now becomes vastly more difficult to remove people without disrupting whole communities.
“The problem with allowing Asylum seekers to be integrated into the general population before a decision is made is that it allows them to build a connection with a life that they might have to give away within a few months.”
Fair point. But I would say that is easily the lesser of 2 evils considering the serious issues with the detention centers.
I feel that level of trauma inflicted by being removed from a community you have spent time in has to be less than the trauma inflicted on people in indefinite detention. I would dig up some of the reports on the effects on the mental health of people in the centers if it wasn’t so late.
Also with an acceptance rate of 90+% for Asylum seekers who arrive by boat the proportion of people traumatized would be significantly reduced. The 10% of applicants that do get rejected would also have greater access to legal help and other services that may then increase the chance of them being accepted or help them deal with any trauma they suffer.
Unfortunately its a system where there is no real way around causing trauma on some level (unless we just accept all applicants which I can’t see happening politically). The main focus should be reducing the amount of trauma and helping the people who suffer as much as we can.
Exactly what I would have said, Matt, cheers.
Not to mention that there is community within a detention centre, so should their application be rejected they also have to leave that community and support system they have built. It just comes with added stress, mental health deterioration, inability to acclimatise to Australian culture, be able to walk down a street, go to the beach, a park….volunteer work etc etc…
I may have misunderstood you Shoei. But are you saying that that is the reasoning behind the government wanting to turn the boats back? That its because they empathise with the building a connection and then have that taken away from you. I gueuss my argument to that is that that is just manipulated the publics opinion. All the immigrants shown in the chart above come to our country with money to spend and they are also from more westernised country (apart from Malaysia). The government could also spend less money on simply sending officials to the camps and sus out who the genuine people are and who are not if the other problem is that they are not genuine. All of their reasoning is immature and appaling.
where do these stats come from .. and what ratios are used .. this is a pile of shit
look at the reference list at the bottom of the info-graphic for a handy hint of where these stats came from
If you would like the 2012 figures from UNHCR then you can read them here:
Click to access UNHCR%20GLOBAL%20TRENDS%202012_V08_web.pdf
Or if you would like a quicker and easier breakdown of the official stats, focussed on Australia, then you can read them here:
Click to access australia-vs-rest-world-refugees-asylum-seekers___.pdf
I would rather not risk putting someone who has already survived something far worse than I can even imagine being imprisoned and further traumatised in their ‘new home’. Hire more people to do the processing if necessary but living people in detention facilities for over 6months is unacceptable in this Internet era, where we make a phone call or a few phone calls and verify almost anything.
Yes! We can even train and employee refugees to do the processing so they won’t tek owr jerbs! As well as employing Aussie workers doing this and more. Why look on these humans as economic burdens when they could better be viewed as providing economic opportunities (for us & them) instead?
People need to be properly assessed so the country can have the best outcome in managing new arrivals. It is so much more then just accepting people there must be follow up plans to allow for looking after people in a holistic manner .One of the biggest issues we face is mental health problems and lack of affordable housing We have a housing crisis as it is so the government needs to do some hard yards on the basic problems .. So I guess there should be an honest dialogue opened up that is going to address concerns that many people have at the moment.The government is creating a lot of problems themselves with their lack of transparency and hidden agenda.They really need to get their act together and take a grown ups approach by working together on this issue . The majority of people seeking asylum probably are genuinely only looking for a safer and better place to bring up their families. People need a timely response to the application whether positive or negative and a process that is not so ridiculously drawn out. Proper assessments are necessary to stop the ones that have other reasons.
i gota side with the bogans on this one 55grand to process an asylum seeker is pure ridiculousness, but its ok i have a solution…….. let them in, in a reasonable time instead of when its politically convenient. even if the bogans are 100% right and they all join the welfare ques (not likely) that would still be about 35 grand a year cheaper per person.
That’s a good point!
i should clarify befor someone points it out i dont mean let them all in screening is still very important but i do thinking we could aim for 10 days to detain them and save enough money to fund the Australian space program
This blog has no relevance. I notice that about five people comment on it. And these five people are all who agree with each other. So what is it preaching to but the converted? Give it up to global warming and f*** this blog, clearly none of those who we wish would give a shit can give a shit.
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn12992-computer-servers-as-bad-for-climate-as-suvs.html
You don’t see the enraged incoherent defamer spam we trash each day 🙂
Also this blog has a Twitter following far larger than the number who actually post. And we can post and repost the truth in a convenient form every time the bogots start their nonsense.
Now I think you and New Scientist agree that a server powered by renewables would be sustainable? And fewer racists and bigots spewing their toxic gases has to be good for the planet?
It’s just that it seems to have run out of steam. There once were abundant posts. Now… well, there are only a handful ever. I reckon you should post some of the trash you normally can. It might put a few things in perspective. Not to mention that it could only serve to make bigots look even worse.
We do our best. We all have lives, unlike the enemy, and mortgages etc to feed. We usually get two out a week, sometimes more.
We also have an abundance of material, but more is always welcome.
So what is the population of the nations compared and how many of those are directly involved and employed in the process of asylum and immigration? I ask because there’s no comparative data to contrast both sides of the argument while it’s insinuating to be unbiased. An academic would probably fail this kind of analysis if part of the marking rubric is on the impartiality of data.
Good point Jacky. Can’t speak for the amount of people involved in the application process, but asylum seekers compared to country population is something like: USA-0.01%, France-0.075, Germany-0.05, Sweden-0.32, Malaysia-0.001, Canada-0.067, Aus-0.035
And, while yes, Australia isn’t being “swamped” America hardly is either, but it’s obviously trying to imply that which makes me question the bias of the rest of the information presented.
The US has a population of 314 million on a land mass about the size of Australia and takes thousands of irregular arrivals crossing the Mexican border every year in addition to thousands of asylum seekers it takes.
Puts Australia to shame.
I get your point, however, as an Aussie living in the US I see it affecting this country tremendously…. for the worse. Economically, they are suffering, but also importantly, they are slowly changing the culture…I live in California in a town where numbers are approaching 50% Hispanic in the population. How long before there are little Mexicos scattered throughout and this country loses itself…
I don’t know what you are complaining about hhhmmmm – I wish I had such easy access to authentic Mexican cuisine
hhmmmmm-what exactly are you scared of? How exactly is your town changing, beyond population type?
It’s like those Aussie alarmists who say “If we become less than 75% white….just imagine what will happen?”
And the answer, of course, is nothing. America recently had a demographic change, with the white population being less than 50%…..and everything continues on as usual.
JM I’m trying hard not to be or sound racist here, maybe if I mention I am married to a Puerto Rican it may help that, but what I meant is simply that ….being an immigrant myself I think when someone chooses to move to a new country they want to live there cause they like IG right and what to integrate into it and not entirely lose themselves but adapt somewhat to be a part of that culture. If they can that’s great. I did. I am still fiercely Aussie and proud of it but I don’t go flying my flag around everywhere and having huge Australia day parades or starting Aussie shops everywhere…the problem in alot of towns I’ve seen around cali is that that is happening… they don’t really want to live like Americans they want to bring Mexico here and fade out everything else. One town I worked inhad a main street nearly full of Hispanic run, Spanish only speaking restaurants and stores. I went in one and could not even communicate enough to get prices or descriptions of product in there!! Wouldn’t that bug you? I’m all for multiculture for sure but not at the expense of another’s. I do love Mexican food though Matt and taco bell will be one I miss for sure if I ever get the chance to move back home to Oz. BUT…I love American food and stores too and would hate to see them dissapear cause Mexicans would rather go to theirs and just not care to learn English or fit in to their new country…that’s all. 🙂
I bet the food you got in those Hispanic restaurants was a damn sight better than the fast food lethal fat content shite with which America has infested the world for the past 40 years.
Taco Bell is NOT Mexican – it is TexMex which is like saying real Neapolitan spaghetti eaten in Naples is like Heinz tinned spaghetti.
“I’m trying hard not to be or sound racist here, maybe if I mention I am married to a Puerto Rican it may help that”
Yep, that doesn’t help. One can like an individual of one race, and still be deeply racist. Hitler had Asian and muslim friends-still a racist dick bag though.
“I am still fiercely Aussie and proud of it but I don’t go flying my flag around everywhere ”
Why not? You say you are a proud Aussie, but you’re ashamed of our flag now?
“having huge Australia day”
Why not? Is being Australian not something to celebrate?
“starting Aussie shops everywhere”
Wati, this is a problem? Migrants coming in to new countries and creating businesses which in turn create jobs, and create taxes is something you oppose?
How DARE they improve the economy!
“hey don’t really want to live like Americans they want to bring Mexico here and fade out everything else. ”
How exactly is America being faded out? Have new cultures around doesn’t make America cease to be, it just means there’s more cultures added to the mix.
If my street fills with Afghanis, I don’t suddenly become Afghani. I’m still who I am.
“One town I worked inhad a main street nearly full of Hispanic run, Spanish only speaking restaurants and stores”
One town you went to was filled with restaurants and stores that were run by migrants and was actually running. For a person living in a country still struggling out of the worst recession since the Great depression, you’d think you’d be celebrating about this.
” I went in one and could not even communicate enough to get prices or descriptions of product in there!!”
And so….you go to another store. This isn’t that tricky. It’s in the stores interests to be able to serve people in Spanish, but also to serve you in English. If you can’t be served in one store, you go to another (And considering the vast majority of Americans use English as a sole language, you won’t need to search hard) and get service. More money goes to the store that can serve the larger number of people survives in the long run. Capitalism-it works….sometimes.
“Wouldn’t that bug you?”
Yes, then I would realise I am a white English speaking male, and I can enter any shop in the world and have a better than 50/50 chance that the store will be able to serve me in English, go to another shop, and buy the item.
And then, I think that if being unable to enter one shop is the worse thing in the world that’s going to happen to me, I’m going to have a sainted life.
“’m all for multiculture for sure but not at the expense of another’s.”
How is your culture being degraded by Mexico, Australia or wherever? So far your only complaints are “I couldn’t go to one shop….out of literally thousands that I could” and “Damn those Mexicans with their job producing businesses-why couldn’t they have foreclosed businesses like everyone else”
Incidentally, as you say you oppose multiculturalism when it involves….too many migrants of one culture moving into one area, migrants being proud of where they come from, migrants celebrating their culture, and migrants opening businesses and restaurants to express their culture (And at the same time create jobs, and taxes)-how exactly are you for multiculturalism? Or is it a case of “I support multiculturalism when everyone pretends to be white, and not too many people who aren’t white turn up”?
“I love American food and stores too and would hate to see them dissapear cause Mexicans would rather go to theirs”
Wait….so Mexicans should support American food industries….even if they don’t like it. They should eat all American food, and nothing else, and support businesses that may not need to exist, rather than create their own businesses that do.
Damnit-I hate to sound like the capitalist here, but what the hell is wrong with you? This is how the market works. Popular eateries who serve great food get the money and survive. Terrible eateries that serve unpopular food collapse. Do we really want to live in the world where migrants (And only Mexican migrants-you’re allowed to eat wherever you want I notice) are required to prop up food stores based on their Americaness-instead of whether or not they serve good food?
You want American food to continue. Eat it. Eat it every single day. This is how industries survive-people support them. Or, you could grab a Mexican and shove a hot dog down their throat shouting “EAT IT! SUPPORT AMERICA! USA USA USA!”
See which one has the greater effect.
Incidentally Taco Bell is not mexican food. Taco Bell is garbage fed to dogs. Calling it Mexican would be like calling Outback Steakhouse Australian food. Try some true mexican food from actual mexican restaurants sometime, and you’ll be amazed.
” just not care to learn English”
Again, not really your problem. If someone chooses to not learn English (Instead of being too old, or too young to know it yet), then they are hurting themselves more than they are hurting you. If you refuse to learn the English language you cannot find a job outside of your neighbourhood, you cannot get a good education, you cannot really move outside your neighbourhood. So there’s one street where someone can get by without learning English-do you know of a lot of people who are happy to get by in life without leaving one street?
You can go wherever you want, and like I said, have an extremely good chance of finding work, study options, and service. Someone who refuses to learn English does not have these options. Yet you’re the one complaining.
” or fit in to their new country”
How exactly does someone fit into thier new country without denying who they are? Because so far all yuo’re saying is that people should not celebrate thier culture, should not display their culture, and shouldn’t open businesses related to their culture.
So how does one keep their culture in a new country? Or is it a case of “Deny who you are as soon as you arrive”?
Damn, you’re against capitalist market deals, and against cultural identity-this is sounding so much like communism it’s scary!
I knew you guys were going to say that about taco bell lol I almost wrote it myself but forgot but you’re right its not authentic but I love it anyway 🙂 and of course I have eaten at many “real” Mexican places and love that too …I am not afraid to admit I am less educated about a lot of this stuff than you guys, you all make good points and I’m glad I’m here to learn more…I have been away from Australia for nearly 8 years and the boat people issue has only come up since I’ve been over here so I’m just learning about it now. My opinions are still being formed, I think of myself as very open-minded and willing to hear all the facts and change my mind if needed when presented with more evidence. My opinion so far is really based upon my observations in this country. Its a hard place to be cause I am a loving, friendly accepting person and have friends and family from many different cultures I guess my opinions changed a lot from living in a different country and around a lot of Hispanic people, while its never a good thing to generalise, a lot of them would come into my vet office not knowing English and expecting us to speak Spanish to accommodate them. That’s what got me annoyed in the first place. They seem to not want to learn English or be part of the american society but simply create their own separate one instead. And not just streets but towns really! I think a lot if them come up from Mexico so they can earn money for their families back home but that’s all they’re here for. So they make their own little Mexican city where they hide I guess. Maybe I’m way off but that’s how it appears. Yes they make new jobs but then hire each other. So not really helping America just using their land basically. It sucks too that not knowing Spanish limits your job prospects in these areas cause employers benefit more of course.
Have any of you lived in other countries? Maybe you can understand where I’m coming from. If not maybe you can’t. I have an Aussie flag on my car. And in my house. I tell most people I meet. I’m not going to have a parade in my town cause I think …I dunno… just wouldn’t feel right. I’m not ashamed of my flag lol that’s going a bit far JM. There are rules for flying flags here though are you aware? You cant just put an Aussie flag in your front yard.
Please don’t put me down cause I don’t even know what communism really is. Or market capitalism. I’m here to learn. Thanks for your polite input.
” They seem to not want to learn English or be part of the american society but simply create their own separate one instead. ”
Have you tried learning another language? It’s hard! Really really hard. As I mentioned before, people do it because if they want to move about in Western society, they need to, and if people come into your Vet shop expecting you to know Spanish, they’re in for a surprise.
But…and this is where capitalism comes in, if you had a spanish speaking staff member, you would pick up a lot of business.
” I think a lot if them come up from Mexico so they can earn money for their families back home but that’s all they’re here for. ”
And that’s a problem….how? They’re not taking jobs anyone else wants-because people who don’t speak English don’t get to choose their jobs. As most farms will say, if they did not have workers coming from Mexico they would not have workers at all.
If payment is done legally-you get taxes. Even if payment is done illegally (cash in hand), you get the flow on effect from their work. It’s a win-win.
I heard some people in Australia complaining like you, saying that Chinese workers just come to australia to send money back to China….but while they are here they are working, making money (which is usually taxed), spending money on rent, food, clothes, local services….even if they send a lot of money back home they need to spend money in their host country to survive.
“Yes they make new jobs but then hire each other.”
So they make jobs, then choose who they employ? How DARE they? The job positions should be decided not by the employer’s judgement of who is most suited for the job, but because of a Government decision.
Again, these jobs create businesses, which by your own account are doing quite well, and create taxes to pay for services which might just be able to get the US Economy slowly out of the deep recession it’s found itself. And you want to stop that?
“So not really helping America just using their land basically. ”
New businesses means new jobs. New jobs means less reliance on public service. New jobs means more income tax going to Government. More income means more ability to spend income in the country, supporting more businesses which in turn make new jobs and more revenue in taxes.
How is that not helping America?
” It sucks too that not knowing Spanish limits your job prospects ”
You mean you’re angry that not being bilingual limits your job prospects? Yes, this is a fair complaint-how dare employers favour people who can communicate to a larger number of customers, therefore increasing business and making more money-how DARE they?
Incidentally, as before, you are complaining about a small limitation you have, which goes against your overwhelming privelege. Are you honestly telling us it’s easier for a person who can only speak Spanish to find a job in America than it is for someone who can only speak English?
“Have any of you lived in other countries? ”
Yes. Japan, Canada, the UK.
“Maybe you can understand where I’m coming from. If not maybe you can’t.”
Nope, really can’t. I was a proud Australian in all these countries. I did celebrate Australia Day in Venice, and didn’t hide who I was, because it’s something that makes me happy.
“I’m not going to have a parade in my town cause I think …I dunno… just wouldn’t feel right.”
Okay, a parade is a bit far, but why not celebrate Australia Day. Why does moving to another country mean you have to not celebrate who you are?
This is a long comment thread. I think it’s worthwhile to note that currently Mexicans and Central Americans who immigrate to the USA are not refugees (although perhaps many could argue that Mexico’s “war against drugs” has forced them to flee their homes and country in fear of their lives, thus giving them refugee status). There are similarities in the way they are treated on both sides of the border and by the people who “help” smuggle them across – often leading to their own deaths. There is huge risk for people to leave their homes and migrate to the US and many don’t make it.
hhhmmmm, you sound like you’re trying hard to understand and be tolerant of people of other cultures without actually having a clue as to what’s going on in their lives or how to do this. You say Mexicans should assimilate into American culture but you are quick to point out to others that you’re Aussie wherever you can. This is because you might look like an American at first glance, and it doesn’t go against you to point out that you’re from Australia. If you were from El Salvador, however, not everyone would say “Ohh El Salvador? Can you say something in English? I love how you people speak!” as they do to Australians cos they like the Aussie accent. This makes it a lot easier for you to assimilate into white American California and grumble at people who don’t have it as easy as you do. I encourage you to read and consider carefully what Peggy McIntosh wrote called “White Privilege: Unpacking the Invisible Backpack”, available at http://www.amptoons.com/blog/files/mcintosh.html – this was written primarily reflecting on the racial differences between blacks and whites, but in it you may discover that much of the privilege and options and freedoms you enjoy as an Australian simply do not exist for people of other cultures, including Mexicans.
For the record, I’m an Australian living in Mexico. I do not fly my Aussie flag in my house. And Taco Bell is anything but Mexican food.
Just want to add that this is probably totally separate to asylum seekers since they are trying to get in legally….right? But a lot of the Mexicans here haven’t and aren’t. And this is info I’ve been hearing a lot. They are getting in, obtaining social security numbers illegally and then hitting up the welfare system for an easy ride, putting their kids in school etc and all the while not paying any taxes towards any of it. It cost me thousands to be able to get into and live and work in this country, then I paid taxes too. I know its hard to distinguish who do and who don’t go about it the right way and want to start in a new country for the right reasons and with every intention of working their way in and up and earning what they get. But there are certainly plenty of those that don’t…
Also I want to apologize for all my typos and spelling and grammar mistakes previously I have been using my phone and darn autocorrect plus my tendonitis and 2 small kids have made me rush and let mistakes go….I normally pride myself on correct grammar and spelling and get annoyed at mistakes others make.
“Just want to add that this is probably totally separate to asylum seekers since they are trying to get in legally….right? ”
Right. Asylum seeking is legal, whereas people coming over the border are illegal immigrants.
“They are getting in, obtaining social security numbers illegally and then hitting up the welfare system for an easy ride,”
That’s actually not true. They pay taxes all the time, but don’t get any access from welfare for that:
http://www.tolerance.org/immigration-myths
As as for an easy ride-as you’ve shown they’re working! Working hard in shops, and if you want to see more-go check out a farm or a rich person’s house-see the incredibly hard working migrants involved there.
There’s a documentary made in England called “When the migrants left” where long erm unemployed British natives were provided with the jobs migrants were already doing. Virtually all of them were not able to succeed in their jobs-some didn’t turn up.
And the truth is, if these farmers could find a lot of American natives who would do this very very hard work, they would. But they can’t. Same in Australia-the farms would love local food pickers, but they don’t get tat.
“the while not paying any taxes towards any of it. ”
Where on earth are you getting that from? Having lived in America, as a toursit for 2 months, I was a paying a lot of tax-because you have a tax on everything? You have GST, you have sales tax, as well as income tax. The only way Mexicans could avoid paying any money in tax is if they never ate, drink, or bought anything.
“It cost me thousands to be able to get into and live and work in this country, then I paid taxes too.”
But that’s the problem. The people who can pay thousands of dollars aren’t the people who will accept the jobs that need feeling, such as farm work. Would you have spent thousands of dollars just to work on a farm 12 hours a day?
By the way-having a fake social security number doesn’t get you welfare. It just means you’re putting money into social security that you can never get back. It’s like-if I made up a fake bank account-one that doesn’t exist, and deposited money into that account. The Bank would keep the money, but I could never access it.
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Myths_and_facts_about_immigration_to_the_United_States#Legal_immigrants_come_here_to_get_.22welfare.22
Sorry mindmadeup you cannot compare the 2 countries USA & Australia until you account for the inhabitable land mass for each. plus jobs available. housing, water supply, etc.
And what are these asylum seekers really bringing with them to add to the economy?
The mexicans crossing the boarder every year, work jobs in the USA that no one else will do. Laboring Jobs. Farm work, restaurant cooks, painters. etc. They are given these jobs because they are cheap to hire, Americans would not work for the wage these mexicans are paid. But it is more than they would make in their own country. Many have been illegally in the country for years, not payiing taxes. They send most of their income back to Mexico.
If they have a baby here in the USA, the baby becomes a US citizen upon birth giving that child all the welfare rights.( a drain to the economy) etc. etc…
No one can compare one country or even one state of a country until one has all the facts!!! Each are only capable of so much growth in population for economical stability.
Also I don’t know why you take my words to mean the extreme, I am not against cultural identity…denying who you are. I certainly don’t, ask anyone who knows me here and they will tell you where I came from, how much I talk about home and love and miss it like crazy. So much I think I annoy people with my insinuations that Australia is the better country ;-). BUT I have also embraced the American lifestyle, celebrate with them and adapted to their food etc. Of course I still make Aussie dishes when I can, keep vegemite and custard powder and crunchies when I can get them. But …that’s all I’ve got. Just wanted you to know before you make more assumptions of me.
I like different cultures in one place. I also love Indian food, Asian food, thai food…but everything in moderation. I just don’t want Australia to become like Here where small groups take over towns. Maybe that won’t happen. Just putting it out there.
“BUT I have also embraced the American lifestyle, ”
How? What is the American lifestyle? In what ways have you embraced it that the Mexican population has not?
“celebrate with them”
Did you think that they might be a little resistant to celebrating with white Americans because
A) Language difficulties. Migrants are incredibly self conscious about their language-even if they can speak fluently, they’re scared about embarrassing themselves by saying or interpreting something the wrong way-and often would prefer to say nothing than to say the wrong thing.
B) Fear of the general public. Let’s face it-the descriptions given to the Latino population in America by the media, the politicians and the community is not a nice one. It is deliberatley aggressive, and antagonistic. I can see the same thing in Australia regarding the Muslim community-many Muslims are scared of white Australia because they’ve seen politicians and media people often saying “The Muslims are evil and will destroy Australia” I can easily find politicians and media people, let alone community leaders say “Mexicans are to blame for unemployment/drugs/all crime/the destruction of America”
Now if someone had said all these things about you-would you feel comfortable going to their house to celebrate?
” and adapted to their food etc”
Again…so Mexicans are required, in order to become americans, to eat like Americans, even if they don’t want to? Freedom, something I believe is popular in America, includes the right to eat what you want. And if you don’t like something, you don’t have to eat it.
To flip this on the other side, if a Mexican family moved into your street, and said you must eat Mexican food, must support Mexican food insutries, even if it’s something you hated….would that be okay with you? If not, you are suggesting the same thing to Mexican families.
“I like different cultures in one place. I also love Indian food, Asian food, thai food…but everything in moderation. ”
How does that even work? “Okay-we’ve got two Thai families, one Indian family and three Mexican families-no more Mexican families are allowed to enter the town until more Indians do)?
The truth is new communities do start by moving into one area…because it’s safer. New communities are scared-even if they know English they are not comfortable with it, they;re used to stories of racism and hatred being directed at them in the news and throughout history, and they can’t afford to live in “safe” places, so the best option is to live in unsafe areas where everyone knows you. That happened with the Italian communities, the Irish communities, the Polish communities, Jewish communities, and now the Mexican communities.
But it changes over time. Not immediatly, but if people can afford it, they get out of that area-particularly young people. Suddenly it spreads out a little more, then a little more. The community hub remains, just as there are Italian areas in NYC, but as the community spreads out, everyone else moves in (usually because the then cheaper housing has become a popular area)
” I just don’t want Australia to become like Here where small groups take over towns.”
You’ve described a town where there are many businesses which are running, creating wealth for the community, and you’re annoyed because they don’t all speak English, and they don’t serve “American” food. I can think of plenty of small towns in Australia that would love a new community creating wealth.
In fact, I live in one right now. In Shepparton the Afghani community has mapped a little community for themselves, creating businesses, jobs, and wealth. More jobs means fewer people on centrelink, means more taxes come to the local council to spend on improving services. And it’s been a bit of a hit.
What would the alternative be? Let’s destroy this myth that Mexicans are coming into a mom & pop diner with guns shouting “All right-we’re taking over this business”-they are not stealing or taking from anyone. They are, instead, creating a business, which means generating wealth. As the alternative would be to have areas where there are no businesses-is this really a better place to be?
And here’s what you ignored:
1- How exactly is America being faded out? Have new cultures around doesn’t make America cease to be, it just means there’s more cultures added to the mix.
2- How is your culture being degraded by Mexico, Australia or wherever?
3- Incidentally, as you say you oppose multiculturalism when it involves….too many migrants of one culture moving into one area, migrants being proud of where they come from, migrants celebrating their culture, and migrants opening businesses and restaurants to express their culture (And at the same time create jobs, and taxes)-how exactly are you for multiculturalism?
4- If someone chooses to not learn English (Instead of being too old, or too young to know it yet), then they are hurting themselves more than they are hurting you. If you refuse to learn the English language you cannot find a job outside of your neighbourhood, you cannot get a good education, you cannot really move outside your neighbourhood. So there’s one street where someone can get by without learning English-do you know of a lot of people who are happy to get by in life without leaving one street?
Hi JM.
I’m originally from Shep too. The last time I lived there was about 8 years ago though.
I do miss the diversity of culture in Shepparton. Where I live now is much much less culturally diverse, and it’s a real shame that we haven’t seen more people from various different cultures, including more refugees and asylum seekers, move here. The community would really benefit.
Be well.
Oh… and hhhmmmm just on the whole Mexican population and speaking Spanish thing in that area of the US.
I’d think the least Americans can do is be understanding and helpful when people from Mexico migrate (if you can call returning to land migrating…) and make some effort to learn a little Spanish if they live in a community with a significant number of people who’s first or prodominant language is Spanish. It helps people to then be able to learn English more fluently and aids in community buildng and social cohesian (it always baffles me why so many English speakers think that everyone else should know English but that we shouldn’t also make an effort to learn other languages…)
By the way…almost all second generation people of Hispanic heritage in the US speak fluent English, most with English as a first language…with only around half of the second generation still speaking Spanish. If that’s not ‘integrating’ I don’t know what is…
(I’m sure you’re aware that we hear the same complaints about migrant communities in Australia…which are so totally unfounded as we have a long history of ALL migrant communities integrating well and the 2nd generation being fluent in English. Migrants who have access to the community, and especially if they have access to English classes, also do extremely well at becoming fluent in a short amount of time).
Spanish is the second most commonly spoken language in the US with around 30% of the population speaking it, higher in some areas… And it used to be one of the languages when the US was officially bilingual (English and Spanish were the languages used in legislature etc). It’s not Spanish is a new language to the US, especially to those South Western states which actually used to be part of Mexico…
It makes sense to me that as many Americans as possible would learn Spanish, especially in areas with higher levels of Spanish speaking people and businesses, and such a strong Spanish speaking history, as is the case in the South West.
So much of American culture, names of places etc come from Spanish heritage, and it’s one of the largest Spanish speaking comnunities in the world. It makes no sense to me why there is so much hostility from English speaking Americans.
Ali you are right. I forget the history of the place. And I too don’t fully understand the cracked relationship between Americans and Mexicans. When I first moved here, I got in trouble for calling them Mexicans!! I was told to say “Hispanic” so I wasn’t being offensive. offensive? Its crazy!! They have been put down so much its terrible. I think unfortunately I have been rubbed off on by alot of different people I have met or worked with that are truly racist without appearing so and planted seeds in my mind. I used to be much nicer and less critical. 😦 and yes there are many second generation kids that speak both fluently and they often come into our office to translate for their parents. Kind of annoying trying to explain technical medical terms to young children but what can you do. We do have bilingual employees also JM my boss isn’t dumb but I did get my job just based on my animal degree, most of the bilingual girls he takes right from school with no experience but their language skill is their ticket in. Pretty much all businesses in and around the county I lived in had bilingual workers so technically JM they could go about their whole lives happily not knowing English and not caring. I can’t say for sure of course I’ve never done a survey. And there are still lots that are learning and when they come in to try to talk to me in English I love it and try my best to speak to them with the little Spanish I have picked up over the years. So yes JM I have tried to learn Spanish not just for our clients but also to communicate with some of my hubbys family from PR that don’t know English. Plus its fun to use with my other family that speak both, and I do want to teach my sons since its also their heritage.
I also studied another language in school. It is hard yes but I think if I moved to another country that did not speak English I would definitely be doing all I can to learn theirs…it just makes sense and shows respect. If I livedin Asia, I would eat, drink and dress Asian to be respectful and fit in there. Just makes sense to me. But I wouldn’t be hiding my true self either. What proud Aussie could? Of course I celebrate Aussie day and whatever else in my home. There’s a difference. They really do have cinco due mayo and other parades and stuff here I wasn’t being sarcastic there.
Anyhow, I am still taking all this info that you are presenting in and changing my opinions so thank you for that. 🙂
“. Pretty much all businesses in and around the county I lived in had bilingual workers so technically JM they could go about their whole lives happily not knowing English and not caring. ”
Really? Think about it though-as Ali stated, the proportion of America that speaks Mexican is 30%. That’s a lot of the population you can’t access if you can’t speak English.
And that’s a lot of jobs you can’t get. If you can’t read and write English, how do you apply for most jobs in America, let alone get them? Even in your example, you note it’s not Spanish only speaking workers who get a chance at getting jobs-it’s bilingual workers who get a great chance at getting jobs. And of course they do-it’s a skill that incredibly useful, but not so common. It’s the same at my organisation-we need Migrant support workers, and those who are bilingual or multilingual, even if their credentials aren’t as strong as other contenders, are greatly needed.
As for jobs that only need Spanish only speakers-yep they exist. They’re not that good though. People don’t become millionaires in America while only being able to speak Spanish. This whole issue reminds me of a story we had in Australia, where a current affairs program complained about job advertisements only being put in Chinese or Vietnamese in areas with a large Chinese population. And it complained about “Not letting kids get jobs” and “They’re discriminating against White people” but didn’t mention a main thing that my wife who is Vietnamese and has previously done such jobs, pointed out: – “You don’t paid anything for that job-less than minimum wage, and sometimes not even that”
“I would eat, drink and dress Asian to be respectful and fit in there.”
Again, so to be respectful to a new country, a person must eat like an American, drink like an American, and dress like an American? Even if they don’t want to?
Again, if someone forced you to eat food you hated, in the name of cultural identity, would you be happy about this?
“They really do have cinco due mayo and other parades and stuff here I wasn’t being sarcastic there.”
Yes, I know of cinco de mayo-but you got to realise, that’s not really a Mexican holiday. You go to Mexico, it’s not celebrated. It’s a marketing holiday-a holiday created by drinks companies to drink Mexican beer.
And Mexicans, being wise, accepted this holiday because it meant many people would eat at Mexican restaurants or buy Mexican products-it’s seeing an opportunity and making money off it.
By the time most of these people are processed they have been traumatised by detention. Living in a jail type environment can have serious mental health ramificiations. A larger debt to our society. Process them quickly and offer them a life here. The cost of detention is way too much.
The main reason I think the “boat people” are a problem is because they are jumping the line ahead of legitimate refugees from all over the world. The ones who go about it all the right way are being turned away due to the amounts of these people coming by boat. Its not fair to the refugees is Africa for example. That’s not to mention the money that it is costing us as a nation. Im all for multicuturalism but id rather it be the ones who go about it the right way who get excepted.
That’s true, Samiller. African refugees aren’t turned away, however asylum seekers coming to Australia do lengthen the time other refugees spend in refugee camps. However there’s one thing you should think about.
Do you know how many other countries apart from Australia link asylum seeker numbers with refugee intake numbers? In other words, do you know how many countries reduce the number of refugees they bring in by the number of asylum seekers they take in?
None. Nada. Not a one.
So the blame for queue jumping should not be placed on asylum seekers. After all, if we had to flee the country, would we be thinking about every other refugee in the world, or thinking primarily about protecting our own families? How often do you consider the plight of every refugee in the world when deciding on your daily decisions? To expect any particular asylum seeker to seek out a refugee camp (Which are often harder to gain access to for countries in the Middle East compared to Africa), because they’re concerned about all other refugees in the world is not just expecting normal selflessness, it’s expecting selflessness to the point of sainthood, to a degree never seen before on this planet.
The problem with the boat people is not queue jumping, as what they are doing is legal and purposeful. The problem is the Government who set up a system that competed groups of asylum seekers against each other, only in order to denigrate those who risk their lives to save themselves and their family.
Putting it that way makes a lot of sense. This is why I read this blog, to learn =]
Like! 🙂
There is no global “queue”. It would be great if there was, but the worldwide situation which produces refugees also works against having a fair and equitable system for resettlement.
http://www.amnesty.org.au/refugees/comments/22616/
thanks for that link, it’s always good to have something like this to direct bogots to.
Not that any of them will read it, it’s written by a pinko-commie-leftie-tree-hugging-unStrayan at Amnesty International after all and goes against everything they would have learned from TT or ACA
All I know is these people are hero’s. They are starving to death, but yet can make the incredible journey. I would let these people into my home for a home cooked meal.
Daniel are you aware that in May 2013 a jihad terrorist mannaged to sift from these boat assylum seekers & make his way to the Adelaide Hills, Sth Australia Where he was caught & detained… I’m all for long time processing. Obtain all info & facts before entry.
Samantha, you are aware that that so called jihadi terrorist then had his convictions quashed, turning up they were made up by the same government he was fleeing?
Incidentally, he was in detention for the entirety of his time in Australia.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/12/egyptian-interpol-sayed-abdellatif-charges
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/07/conviction-egyptian-asylum-seeker
Send them all back where they came from on the first available flight, and they will very quickly stop coming.
Shame we cannot do that to racists. Maybe a leaky boat for the xenophobes, pointed towards Antarctica?
Funny how heroic the uninitiated, uneducated minority can be behind the anonymity of the Internet..Real refugees cannot afford tens of thousands of dollars to pay for their trip. When you get to work with real refugees you can feel qualified to comment.
As for your hackneyed insults, heard it all before from equally ignorant individuals who know nothing about it as well.
People threatened by death in countries like Iraq aren’t necessarily beggars with no money. They scrap together everything they’ve got and board boats that quite often sink, killing all on board. There have been over 100,000 civilian deaths in Iraq since occupation. When you get a fucking clue then maybe you can speak up.
Your ignorance and single minded blindness is patently obvious in your pathetic comments. There are none so blind as those who will not see.
Says the dipshit thinking he knows the intimate financial details of every asylum seeker ever to seek refuge in another country.
Please tell me where the Australian consulate exists in Afghanistan, so we can tell Afghanis to go and join the ‘queue’.
Fuckhead.
Your vocabulary seems to be about as advanced as your knowledge of this topic. It’s truly a pity that there is no IQ test to be taken before you get to vote. Though your puerile comments indicate you probably haven’t reached voting age yet.
Perhaps if you ever start paying tax you may begin to appreciate the reality.
By all means patronize based on assumption. You’re the one that eventually looks like a moron.
Feel free to argue the myth debunking contained on our website. I wish you the very best of luck, though I doubt you’ll need it as there’s no true substitute for real facts other than one’s opinion, right?
If that is your way of apologising for your rudeness, I will gracefully accept it, and it’s great to see you finally mention fact.
Have a nice day.
Never mistake our sarcasm for grovelling to the likes of you.
Now piss off.
Well one of us is certainly ignorant, however when/if you grow up and hopefully get a decent education that could change.
Why do you lot assume that we are uneducated children? It is obviously a ploy to conceal your own yawningly obvious deficiencies by desperately trying to make out that we are as ignorant as you.
It is you who needs to grow up.
“Funny how heroic the uninitiated, uneducated minority can be behind the anonymity of the Internet”
Pot. Kettle. Black.
And we really cannot give a stuff what an ignorant bigot thinks of us, anonymous or not.
i don’t understand, brumby. are you actually saying that a person who has some money, not necesarily being rich but having accesss to enough money to get out of the country, they xan never have their lives be at risk due to their race, religion, culture, or sexual orientation?
to put this in context, the jews that spent a lot of money to flee nazi germany, were not, according to you refugees, and should have been sent back to germany. is that right?
incidentally, i know quite a few muslims who have a permanent job. quite a few are work colleagues of mine. yet i’ve never found a racist, in my experience, who has had a permanent job. so, by your justification, we should deport all racists because they do nothing but get welfare, and do not help our community.
A refugee: “A person who owing to a well-founded fear of being persecuted for reasons of race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group or political opinion, is outside the country of his nationality and is unable or, owing to such fear, is unwilling to avail himself of the protection of that country.” According to the UN, how much money someone has doesn’t come into it.
But on the money thing – judges have given some people smugglers minimum sentences based on the fact that they helped people flee to Australia for no money. Many people who come to Australia by boat don’t pay anything. Others have enough money to pay. Others pay using the money given to them by their extended families and community in the hope that even one person will survive. None of those things mean a person is more or less likely to be a “real” refugee.
HAHAH what a douche! I would much rather Australia be full of refugees then people like you.
You might be thinking of economic refugees. Just because you come from a war torn country or you’re being persecuted, doesn’t mean you’re poor.
They don’t have ten of thousands of dollars to spend? It’s not the poor people, the real refugees who need it most that are on the boats. You think people smugglers are charity workers who do it for free?! There are very few areas in the world that are considered a war zone today and the ones that are, Australia contributes to the UN refugee programme there. How many people can we help in their own countries for the same amount of money as a boat person would cost?
Anna, again, just because an asylum seeker has money doesn’t mean they aren’t legitimate refugees. To give an example from earlier, Jews who could afford to flee Nazi Germany did. According to your definition, they aren’t real refugees and should have been sent back to Nazi Germany.
“There are very few areas in the world that are considered a war zone today”
Refugees don’t always come from war zones. They come from countries where they experience a real fear of persecution or death due to their race, culture, religion, political leanings or sexuality.
Again, if we defined refugees as only coming from war zones, you would be telling Jews fleeing Nazi Germany (Prior to the outrbeak of WWII), to go back home because they aren’t refugees. Similar examples from current times are China, Vietnam, Pakistan, and Sri Lanka. None of these would be considered war zones, but all have severe persecution due to race, culture, religion and political leanings.
“How many people can we help in their own countries for the same amount of money as a boat person would cost?”
And how exactly do we help people fleeing persecution in China without accepting asylum seekers? How exactly do we stop persecution in Sri Lanka, Taliban reprisals in Pakistan, and government crackdowns in Vietnam?
Refugees are not all ‘poor destitute beggars’. You can be working or middle class and have to seek asylum for a variety of reasons. You could have sold everything you owned, or pooled all of your families’ money and made the brave solo journey to try and escape the horror of your life back home.
rushofsun I love your comment. Many do not realize this fact. And the fact that if they had not their ruling dictatorial governments would have disposed of all they owned for their own folly.
dont feed the brumby troll
Processing seems to be a big problem here. With the exception of Sweden, every other country accepting refugees has a much larger population and workforce. Perhaps we should ask Sweden how they manage processing and accepting refugees. But I guess they don’t have people drowning in leaky boats getting there.
Canada is not much larger than Australia. And our economy is better.
Canada’s economy is half again the size of Australia’s, and I’m not sure how the economy in Australia is “better”, but the Canadian economy is doing just fine..
Thanks to all the Canadian mining companies in Mexico and the Mexican government’s complicity in allowing them to dig up sacred areas and not tell the investors about the protests and the murders of the people who live there … the Canadian economy is doing just fine.
The stats listed above do not give us any idea of how many refugees arrive in other countries with passports or some other type of ID. Perhaps this is why we are so slow with the red tape, as the boat people arrive often with no form of identification. Does anyone know the answer to this question?
it’s pretty similar the world over… lack of access to accurate documentation is a big issue for asylum seekers from most parts of the world and all countries who process asylum seekers have the same difficulty with having to identify people who do not have accurate identity documents. Other countries just manage to do it much faster than we do.
Desley perhaps you can ask the racists especially here, as they seen to have all the answers from watching shows like Today Tonight?
And from Compass forum especially Irish and goiday_myd ®
http://goo.gl/EWbq0K
Reblogged this on The Flying V – Slammed Inspiration.
Most refugees accepted in Sweden have already been processed outside of Sweden before arriving. Others that come as refugees have all their id and nationality papers with them upon arrival, this speeds the applications up, contrary to a lot if not the majority of irregular maritime arrivals to Australia who arrive here without any proper nationality documents or id”s. The main reason for the long processing time in Australia is to establish a persons nationality and to get verification of nationality from the country the claim fleeing from. There is a reason to why people from let say Pakistan or Iraq throw away their documentation before setting out from Indonesia or Malaysia, but I am not about t divulge that information due to professional reasons.
Seriously some of the comments doesn’t make logic. For not allowing ppl to live in community during the time of their application been process. How devastating is to live in detention rather then living in community till the time ur decision is made. Sitting on another side of the fence and saying is one thing. perhaps try living in detention for just 90 days and then please share. WOULD You LIKE TO STAY IN AND WAIT FOR DECISION OR BE IN COMMUNITY?
For me boat people should be stoped? why? children drowning. For me, don’t understand why Rudd and co are not charged with manslaughter due to their policy failures. I never understood, why people encourage boat people and people smuggling. Maybe you should go see a child drown to death?
You obviously have not been following the news.
You know what’s interesting? When people who say they care about stopping asylum seekers to prevent deaths at sea (Definitely a worthy goal), want to charge Rudd for manslaughter due to policy failures. Apparently SIEV X was not a manslaughter case.
Incidentally, no one here encourages people smugglers. But treating desperate people who come here harshly would be inhumane. What other situation exists ever where it is okay to punish desperate innocent people, in the hope someone else will learn from that?
Some interesting comments. I would like to point out that my wife is vey ill and finds it difficult to medical attention, she cannot work, and support is $100 per week. Why should any non australian get any benifits and care before her?
I think can and should accept refugess and other workers but accept them on our terms.
Lets keep it simple. Stop the deaths. Stop the detensions. People should apply properly, get assessed, and then be allowed in.
How exactly does an Afghani apply for a refugee assesment properly? Please be specific.
And what do we do for those who arrive here, if we refuse to accept them as refugees for not applying through a “proper” channel?
“Why should any non australian get any benifits and care before her?”
What benefits are refugees entitled to seek that the general australian publib aren’t?
“and finds it difficult to medical attention”
Why is that the case? She’s entitled to medicare, including publib hospital usage. She would need to go on a waiting list for all non-emergency syrgery true, but here’s the thing-so do refugees.
Coops is your claim “Why should any non australian get any benifits and care before her?” based on facts or watching Today Tonight?
But what would you suggested we do about those who overstay their visa’s? Ah forget you are allowed in and stay with Coops and his wife?
Lets keep it simple. Based your claims on facts, not shows like Today Tonight. Thanks
Now let’s put this in perspective…
Key Points –
Overstayers – Leave
The US has 5 times more asylum seekers and 10 times the population
Australia is an island – France & Canada have land means to remove non-legal immigrants.
Signed,
An Australian LEGALLY residing in the US.
Reblogged this on Damn the Matrix and commented:
Amazing factoids to go with my ‘stench’ post…….
The Greens are going to just allow “anybody”to come to Australia in Boats and virtually GIVE them everything, in the meantime,regular australians are working their asses off paying taxes which are then used to fund these so called refugees.What happened to helping out poor and needy australians FIRST?????What happened to giving state funded houses to people who really need shelter,What happened to stopping DISEASE from entering our country?????………………………………..Christine Milne DONT bloody get me started ok??????? Its ok for you bloody politicians to just get a pay increase willy nillie when ever you see fit,However when the nurses and police for instance ask for a pay increase, it has to eventually come down to a really measly amount. You Bloody Greens are going to really STUFF this Beautiful country. You Bloody Greens are eventually going to allow so many illegals in and you are going to cut short the process and one day a serious Disease is going to break out here because you Bastards allowed it to come in. I thought part of the detention process was to screen for illnesses?????? Another thing,if you Idiots are so naive as to think that these people “just materialised”in Indonesia and they have NO PAPERS then we are well and truely sunked in this country. MY QUESTION…..if they are Iranian,Iraqui,Somali,North African or Afghani for example,how the bloody hell did they get to Indonesia in the first place without papers???If you people really want to help the GENUINE REFUGEES,….Yes there is such a thing as genuine refugees,you would go to countries like Africa,Thailand (hang on why am I telling you where to go, you idiots should already know)and take the people who have been there, living in tents and no running water etc and get them that have been there the longest.Im sure these people will even appreciate waiting in the detention centres that we provide now because it is damn side better than the squallor they have been living in. The so called refugees in detention now do not deserve to be here because they are winging at the conditions,EXCUSE ME !!!!!!Our troops go to their country to maintain law and order and they are put up in TENTS, Christine Milne…….get off your bloody high horse and fight for Australia to be a better place, if you cant do that,migrate to where these illegals are coming from…..REMEMBER THE TRUTH HURTS.
LETS SEE IF WE CAN GET A MILLION LIKES FOR THIS
” virtually GIVE them everything,”
What exactly are refugees “given”? Having worked in the refugee support system for years, refugees get very little. If they have been relocated from a camp, they get basic household goods, as do those released from detention. However, if they have been living in the community up until their visa was determined, they are expected to already have goods. In no cases do they get cars, houses, or any thing else.
Of course, there are systems in place for refugees who have not been able to access basic household goods-but these are the same systesm that all people on a low income can access.
“What happened to helping out poor and needy australians FIRST?????”
We do help them. You can help them too. Which particularly needy group would you like to assist-I can link you up to an organisation which would value your money and/or time to assist that group.
“What happened to giving state funded houses to people who really need shelter,”
Already happening. Asylum seekers do not have access to state funded houses (Outside of detention) any faster than Australian born people in need, and in many cases are not allowed to access this at all.
“What happened to stopping DISEASE from entering our country?????”
All permanent migrants receive health checks. Asylum seekers are given health checks in detention prior to being released in the community, then again once their visa is being determined.
“,However when the nurses and police for instance ask for a pay increase, it has to eventually come down to a really measly amount. ”
This has nothing to do with asylum seekers. Incidentally, the Greens support pay increases for nurses and police.
“You Bloody Greens are eventually going to allow so many illegals in and you are going to cut short the process and one day a serious Disease is going to break out here because you ”
Again, health checks for all migrants applying for permanent residency. What more do you want?
“I thought part of the detention process was to screen for illnesses?”
It is.
“.if they are Iranian,Iraqui,Somali,North African or Afghani for example,how the bloody hell did they get to Indonesia in the first place without papers?”
Because borders are visa regulations aren’t as strict in these countries as they are in Australia.
“?If you people really want to help the GENUINE REFUGEES,”
How exactly are asylum seekers not genuine refugees?
“s,you would go to countries like Africa,Thailand (hang on why am I telling you where to go, you idiots should already know)and take the people who have been there,”
Wait, you want us to go to another country and then take people back ourselves? Pretty certain that’s not legal.
“Im sure these people will even appreciate waiting in the detention centres that we provide now because it is damn side better than the squallor they have been living in. ”
So you’re telling everyone “Hey, you traumatised people, come live in our trauma inducing camps-you won’t mind, will you?”
“The so called refugees in detention now do not deserve to be here because they are winging at the conditions”
So, just to be clear, people are not allowed to complain about being put in detention camps for an indefinite period, with nothing to distract them from the fear they have that they will be sent home to be killed, and constant fear that their family is already being killed back home-no one’s allowed to complain about that?
Do you support free speech at all? Because you know that includes the right to complain.
“!Our troops go to their country to maintain law and order and they are put up in TENTS, ”
Soldiers are paid to go to other countries. Asylum seekers are not.
Soldiers are given many many entertainment options to ensure they can relax and not have to feel the separation from their family constantly. Asylum seekers are not.
Soldiers are allowed to walk around their camps, and are allowed to walk into local communities. Asylum seekers are not.
Soldiers know approximately when they can return to see their families. Asylum seekers do not.
Soldiers can choose to leave the army, knowing when they do they will be safe. Asylum seekers do not have this choice.
“.get off your bloody high horse and fight for Australia to be a better place”
How exactly would you like Australia to be a better place? Considering all you’re doing is complaining about asylum seekers, which, as an issue, doesn’t effect Australia at all?
There is a terrible terrible comedy show on the ABC called “Wednesday night fever” – it’s largely unfunny but they did have one particularly good joke “When we stop the boats”-sung by Sammy J, and explaining how everything is going to be better when the boats are stopped. You’ll get your job back, you’ll be more attractive, your team will win the grand final-everything will be perfect!
It was a joke. Australia has problems. If there were no asylum seekers, there would still be those problems.
“LETS SEE IF WE CAN GET A MILLION LIKES FOR THIS
This is not a facebook post. No one can “like” this even if they wanted.
And even if it was a facebook post, you’re not going to get a million likes. You’re not even going to get a million reads. I only read it because I felt the need to correct some incorrect assumptions, in the foolish hope they you would learn from the experience (Blue lantern to my shame).
If they can afford to fly into Jakarta before getting on a boat,they can afford to fly into Australia,at any airport,they will be detained due to no correct visa docs,put on the next plane back to where they came from and we live happily ever after on the money we pay to the taxman ,being used on those who deserve it,i.e. those who paid it in the first place….we have a front door,and a system of immigration,these people use boats to avoid all the official stuff so they can sneak in and tell us we MUST convert to Muslim,change OUR Country ti the same bullshit thousand year old ways of the country they left,and bleed our welfare system dry…sink the bloody boats,then they may stop coming ….
No one is trying to make anyone convert to their religion except for those Christian desperates who come around at weekends and annoy people (you can report them to your local Council by the way)
We’d love to change Australia to eliminate racists and bigots like you. A national gain in IQ.
not true. There are groups within Australia who actively seek to convert this country into an islamic caliphate, running on sharia law. Whilst these groups are currently in the extreme minority there are other much larger groups that are seeking to make it possible to have muslims tried under sharia law instead of australian common law.
1. Utter bullshit. What are you smoking anyway?
2. Are Jews going to be tried by the Beth Din? Are footballers going to be tried by the NRL or AFL?
You are having fairy tales.
Too much watching Today Tonight and smoking the roll up shit that is News Ltd papers there Andrew.
Any examples of people trying to convert Australia into an Islamic Caliphate? Any from a reputable source (Not http://www.ihatemuslims.org or anything like it).
And any example of people trying to implement sharia law? I’m aware of some people using sharia law for social issues (Divorce, adoption, inheritance, custody), but here’s the thing.
These are not used in contradiction to Australian common law. It is recognied in Australian common law that if two parties can settle a dispute through their own mediation, using whatever law they like, it’s okay. If you want to settle divorce proceedings with a partner with decisions made according to sharia law, jewish law, or the international law of the house of pancakes, it’s okay, as long as both parties agree to the decision.
Now if one side objects to the result, they can take this to the family court to settle. However, this is not encouraged, as while through mediation (Again, whether that be through a priest, an imam, or just a family friend), couples can settle some disputes so that, even if they do not reunite, they will move to becoming amicable, through the court process everyone stays life long enemies.
So that’s how shaira law is being used. As a way of mediating through personal and social disputes, to prevent the issue from going to court and increasing the hostility between parties, and only used when both parties agree, and with conclusions only enacted when both parties agree on them. Doesn’t sound that scary when it’s put in those terms?
What color are you?
This rant from Kellii clearly based on watching Today Tonight and smoking the roll up shit that is News Ltd papers like Andrew, proves they are both racists 100%.
None of this shit that oh I work with those from other countries, I am not a racist.
You are a a racist Kellii.
Like Andrew, Kellii would be happy to help hide those who overstay their visa’s?
Well Kellii has to get money from other sources, since they are bleeding the welfare system dry?
“If they can afford to fly into Jakarta before getting on a boat,they can afford to fly into Australia”
Well, no. You can’t just walk into Australia, after purchasing a ticket. You need a visa to get here, and the government is fairly picky about who it allows to have even a tourist visa. Then there’s the problem of having faulty visa information-as many people don’t have correct information when they flee their country (T ogive an example, many Americans don’t have a passport-just because they don’t plan to leave the country. Now, Afghanistan, a much poorer country, where travelling to government documents is a great risk, is expected to be made up entirely of people with all correct visa information?)
“put on the next plane back to where they came from and we live happily ever after ”
While people forcily being sent back to their home countries are killed or tortutred. Happy happy happy, right? Or is it, out of sight, out of mind. Kinda like if someone begged for your help because their house was on fire, but because you didn’t like the look of them, you locked them insdie their burning house, and walked away. Not your problem, and you get to live happily, spending the time you would have spent helping this person, on something better.
Kellil, you say we have a front door and a system of immigration-how exactly do Afghani refugees access this system of immigration?
And please tell me, who has told you to convert to Islam? Tell me particular individuals who have told you personally that you must convert.
“sink the bloody boats,then they may stop coming ….”
So to be clear, you support drowning innocent people, including women and children, to make a point?
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you need to give the claim rate per head of population – the US is over 10 times our population. The boat people get a shitty deal all the way along the trail – government and private enterprise thugs in their own country and along the way – people prepared to rip them off and rough them up at every turn to arrive in a country which treats them as criminals unlike those who arrive by air as tourists and then make claims. how about equality of all before the law?
….yeah but we know who the people are coming by air…they’re not throwing their passports into the ocean…..and why are they doing that do you think??!!!
But Sick of the Leftist Clowns, what do you think of those coming by planes overstaying their visa’s? Are you silent on this issue, because you are hiding some?
The problem is:
– people die due to the low quality of boats that come here
– for some reason they don’t follow the legal procedures (people can legally get travel documents, travel on a registered ship and travel to a port at NT with no issues)
– the ‘travel documents brokers’ are all illegal
– due to the above point, we often don’t know WHO the asylum seekers actually are (id documents are faked)
– Australia is a very risk guided and security conscious country
On the flip side:
– These people are desperate for a better life.
Solution (most already implemented)
– High collaboration with Police from their originating countries to arrest and prosecute illegal boat agents/brokers
– Navy to patrol un-seaworthy boats to prevent deaths
– Education at their originating countries to prevent people to enlist illegal brokers (thus lowering their risk of entering an un-seaworthy boat)
– Create a legal, safe and regulated boat service specifically for asylum seekers to ensure their safety
– Create a streamlined way to establish people’s identity
– Find some other solution to detain ‘risky’ people that do not have identification documents. It must be secure enough but also humane.
Are people not right in the head here? We shouldn’t be facilitating this kind of activity at all. Kevin Rudd has put his hand up and said I stuffed up by mucking with Howards Asylum program, and has gone back to a similar program that Howard had in place originally. What is needed is the deterrent to not make the journey, and not being granted Asylum in Australia is the solution. These people want to get to Australia that’s the goal, they have well and truly fled their home countries by the time they get to Australia. The reasons for making the journey to Australia are economic.
Rubbish. If you are merely after money you can apply to come to Australia as a skilled or business migrant, because obviously you are going to have professional qualifications or run a business if you have money. You can also be sponsored by people here.
Immigrants from China, India, Korea and stable South East Asian countries like Malaysia often take this route. They have documentation and they are not in fear of their lives.
Somewhat different if you are a dissident in Vietnam, a Hazara in Afghanistan, a political blogger in Iran. You are then often one step ahead of people who want to torture and murder you.
Delete my IP and email address cunt or I will fuck you up. That is a promise from someone who knows how to use a gun cunt
“The reasons for making the journey to Australia are economic.”
On what basis can you say that? Having worked with asylum seekers for years I’ve yet to meet any who were not in fear of their lives. Many were rejected by the refugee determination process, but this is because they do not meet the letter of the definition of a refugee, not because they don’t have a real fear of persecution.
I’ve seen people being refused because
A) They were fleeing persecution because of their gender-which is not covered by the refugee convention
B) They were fleeing criminal syndicates (Drug cartels in Sth America, Sex slavery rings through east Asia) which had more power than the government-they were rejected.
C) They were fleeing countries where some areas would be a death sentence but others weren’t (Pakistan in particular)-they were rejected.
But apparently you know of people who manage to get through just because they are poor?
Being a war refugee that has come to australia in 1996 through the correct way (plane and going through a court hearing to win a refugee status), I can tell you all its not an easy route (the cost of moving and paying for a court hearing, and yes some people lose and get deported), more often the people coming from boats are promised an opportunity to migrate to a country where they can make an income, there are many reasons why some try to migrate here – destroyed homes, no income, no welfare, discrimination in the community or life under threat.
But from meeting refugee’s that have come from detention camps I have seen first hand that some still have family overseas and they have come to earn money, even people on student visa work illegally cash in hand. I cant figure whether this is good or bad for the economy.
But providing welfare to asylum seekers is going to put a strain on our economy as we the australian people are just adding more to the plate of centrelink takers with no skill (our welfare system should be for the elderly, disabled, widowed and those unemployed for short periods of time), correct me if I am wrong but immigrants do have skills in some areas but as a country do we have a shortage in low educated skills?
I do like the plan to move them to PNG, three main reason:
1. If you are coming from a war torn country or somewhere you feel unsafe, being resettled in safe country with a chance to rebuild your life and family, isnt that what we expect these people want?
2. People who genuinely want to seek refuge will still come to settle in PNG
3. The deterrent of not being able to land in Australia might reduce the asylum seekers (as we already seen riots in one facility), i’ve also heard that current assylum seekers living in australia have signed an agreement that if they are told to move to PNG they must, when this kind of news spreads, I hope lives are saved through less people taking risks on crappy boats.
“But providing welfare to asylum seekers is going to put a strain on our economy as we the australian people are just adding more to the plate of centrelink takers with no skill ”
We aren’t providing welfare to asylum seekers-we’re providing Red Cross payments, which are much smaller than a Centrelink payment, and do not get given to all asylum seekers, only those in severe financial hardship who cannot work.
And as for no skills, asylum seekers have plenty of skills. Sometimes they just need local work experience to get a job.
“(our welfare system should be for the elderly, disabled, widowed and those unemployed for short periods of time)”
And what about people who are unemployed beyond a short period of time? What happens to them?
” being resettled in safe country with a chance to rebuild your life and family, isnt that what we expect these people want?”
How is PNG a safe country? It’s incredibly poor, sufferring from hyper inflation leading to high scale poverty, unemployment and crime.
Mate,racist I am not ,I have no issue with migrants coming to Australia,and living the Australian way,working to pay their way,and contributing to society,as I do.I have issues with the minority who make it difficult for the genuine refugees ,by burning down facilities we paid for ,for their temporary accommodation,demanding we must accept them as refugees,when in fact they are Muslim Extremists,sent here by the ones who are too scared to fight some battle they think needs to be fought.I don’t care if they are or are not religious,what religion they follow ,or which God they pray to.I have issues with the minority trying to tell me ,if I want to live in my country of birth,with them,I must convert to Muslim,pray to Allah,wear a turban and follow their way of life!!! It was my home country long before their boat washed into Australian waters,I like it the way it is ,where if you want to practice Bhuddism.Christianity,Catholicism,or whatever other religion,you can,so long as you keep it to yourself.
Yes, you are racist. Please change.
So Kellii thinks it is ok for her and the minority like her, spreading racist BS to the Internet World, that is clearly based on emotions and watching Today Today?
And she must be a idiot if they think working “quite comfortably,with ,many Asian,African,Polynesian,German,French,English,etc.migrants” she is wait for it, she is not a racist when her own rants proves she is a racist.
” living the Australian way,”
What does that even mean?
“I have issues with the minority who make it difficult for the genuine refugees ,by burning down facilities we paid for ,for their temporary accommodation”
Yeah, not a lot of those people get to stay in Australia. So, your issues are for people who are largely punished and deported for their action.
“when in fact they are Muslim Extremists,sent here by the ones who are too scared to fight some battle they think needs to be fought”
Wait, the asylum seekers are being sent by “someone”-you’ve got to have evidence of this conspiracy.
“I don’t care if they are or are not religious,what religion they follow ,”
The fact you just suggested that you have issues with Muslim extremists (Only Muslim extremists), suggests otherwise.
“,if I want to live in my country of birth,with them,I must convert to Muslim,pray to Allah,”
Who has told you that? Who has told you directly that you must convert to Islam?
“wear a turban”
Wait, they want you to convert to Islam, but dress like a Sikh?
“if you want to practice Bhuddism.Christianity,Catholicism,or whatever other religion,you can,so long as you keep it to yourself.”
As a Christian, this is highly offensive. Why am I meant to hide my religion? I’m not trying to convert you, I’m not trying to change your way of life, but why must I hide my religion? It’s something that is a core part of me, makes me happy, and is an integral part of my life. But for some reason according to you, I have to hide it, people shouldn’t know my religion, it should be treated like something I am ashamed of.
Of course, you don’t have a problem with me being proud of my religion. It’s just one religion in particular which is meant to hide itself. Isn’t it?
Amen!
Both my parents are born elsewhere, and my fathers family went through hell to get to this country… but… beliefs were kept to themselves and not pushed on those around them.
I was born here as was my brother. My parents are now Australian supporters in every way. But get them started on today’s migrants (not all but a good deal of) taking advantage of the (ridiculous) system and you’ll not hear the end of it.
Australia was built on migrants! But not those that burn down facilities and not those who will refuse to abide by the Australian way of life (and law).
AussieDave-how exactly have any new migrants been trying to push their views on you? How exactly do you see migrants refusing to obey Australian laws anymore than the general Australian populace?
And what does this:
” refuse to abide by the Australian way of life ”
Even mean?
I am very interested also in finding out about this “Australian way of life”
It does not seem to have many of the cultural or culinary activities we enjoy attached to it and which one would normally find in a rich culture, except for the ancient practices of Indigenous people which do not seem to engage the proponents of this “Australian way of life”.
It does not seem to encompass activities such as reading and classical music.
It seems to be highly disrespectful to women, with its fans often featuring half-naked pictures of women complete with disgusting comments. It also hates people who love someone of the same gender.
JM I think you should re-read AussieDave’s comment. I do not see where he stated anything about new migrants trying to push their views on him.
You hit a point about “How do you see migrants refusing to obey Australian laws anymore than the general Australian populace”
There are crooks in all cultures!
“JM I think you should re-read AussieDave’s comment. I do not see where he stated anything about new migrants trying to push their views on him.”
No directly, but this line:
“but… beliefs were kept to themselves and not pushed on those around them.”
Implies that other migrants do not keep their beliefs to themselves and do push them on others…otherwise why bring it up?
P.s. I work,quite comfortably,with ,many Asian,African,Polynesian,German,French,English,etc. Migrants…so to label me racist is far from accurate…
You just wrote a shitload of racist crap. Hence, you are racist.
Kellii claim that because she “work,quite comfortably,with ,many Asian,African,Polynesian,German,French,English,etc. Migrants” she is not a racist is far from accurate and her own rants above the PS proves this.
I’m not claiming to know all the facts, politics and processes of the ‘Boat People’ issue, but if you remove all the bullshit, all the numbers and statistics – what you’re left with is simple, people in need of help. Who are we to dictate who deserve help and who doesn’t? I fail to see how people can be so unforgiving and without empathy, how would you like to be treated if it was you?. And lets be honest here, if it were a bunch of ‘normal’ white people in a boat with their blonde haired blued eyed children drowning as the boat sunk, it would be an entirely different story. I’m sick of hearing all these disgusting people crapping on about ‘Muslims’ and what they’ll do to ‘our’ country. Of course there are extremists, murders, rapers and just plain fuckheads in other cultures but we have just as many in our own so how can we turn away all the innocents because of ignorant fear? And all those who think they’re high and mighty, maybe take a good look at your family tree, this country that you claim is ‘yours’ and not welcome to asylum seekers wasn’t ‘yours’ to begin with.
Exactly. Unless you are Indigenous, you are a guest here.
Bullshit! I was born and raised here. I am nothing but Australian.
How hypocritical. You want to let asylum seekers in and then say we are all guests! If you are a guest then you have no right to say who comes in.
Its simple…as my folks and many did, come legally or fuck off!
My dad came here at 21, worked his arse off and helped build this country, these people don’t and never will have the same impact… sorry!
Seeking asylum is legal. It’s always been legal.
And “these people'”-who exactly do you mean? Asylum seekers come from many many different countries-all of them won’t make an impact?
Sounds like a racist? Acts like a racist? Claims to not be a racist? … You complete the pattern…
I love the argument about boat people jumping the line for “genuine refugees”. How much more “genuine” do you get than someone willing to risk their life and/or the life of their family for the chance of a better life? Must be pretty desperate to do that wouldn’t you think? Or is logic not allowed into this debate?
Look why not release them with an ankle monitor until it is determined wether their status is that of granted asylum or not & until that time these people can be free to work & contribute to the community, support their families & our government will be satisfied that they can be located when need be to either be documented or returned home!!! This way they are not subjected & further traumatised by prolonged incarceration besides a period for the necessary health checks & what ever else is absolutely necessary. …….. This isn’t ideal but it has to be better than anything going on right now!!!!
Leah how about ankle monitor on those on visa’s and if they overstay we can track to where they are hiding?
We don’t even need an ankle montior. All people on bridging visas have caseworkers, and department of immigration officials checking up on them. IF they change address without reason, they are breaching their visa conditions (Resulting in losing of work rights, study rights, and possibly even detention).
All of you Self centred arseholes, were obviously not around just after the second world war, when the world was swamped with displaced humanity.
Humanity that had seen the worst life could offer, and you stand there with all your potential advantages whinging about life not turning out right for you. Be grateful you live in this country and muster a semblance of decency and do honour to your forebears by respecting their signing the Refugee Convention.
They knew how close we came to sliding into a new dark age.You have benefited by by their sacrifice, do not throw them away, show some respect to your fellow man before you become fascists yourselves.
It’s called entitlement and the bogots have it in spades, and for no real reason. We are yet to see anyone of any presence to emerge from the sewers of social media racism and bigotry.
My family were forced to come here under atrocious conditions. As convicts they were the second wave of boat people to migrate to Australia,shackled in neck & ankle chains, the first wave being the Aboriginals, because they also migrated to this island.
Yes all , ALL Australians are descended from boat people. Argument = Null & Void.
‘The 837 asylum seekers who have arrived in the past week alone – bringing the total this year to more than 15,000 – are more than double Manus Island’s capacity.’ – The Age
I generally find blogs, websites preaching to the converted to be rather useless. Not sure where you copied the pretty charts from but your figures are off.
We find trolls who deny factual evidence to be rather useless.
Your factual evidence in the chart above is dated 2010 Someone needs to update!!~!
Look at this page a bit more. There’s plent of new evidence on this page. This is an old chart because….this is an old post, from 2011!
Here’s figures from 2012:
Click to access australia-vs-rest-world-refugees-asylum-seekers___.pdf
Naturally you’ll have evidence that, contrary to this article, Australia is receiving far more asylum seekers than they are visa overstayers, and that Australia actually is receiving far more asylum seekers than the US, UK, Europe in general, etc.
Excuse me! But that old crap of my being a guest because I’m not indigenous is a load of smelly brown, while I don’t agree totally with what was done in the past, it’s just that the past. I was born here and when someone screams racism without cause to speaks to me of an unintelligent yobbo whose travelling for an argument. I personally feel that if someone is desperate enough to face weeks at sea in a wooden coffin, they shouldnt be worried about detention centres where they get medical attention, 3 squares a day. Whilst the country they’ve invaded attempts to work out through the nightmare of political red tape in order to be offered a legitimate second chance. Those that do complain you’ve got to wonder if their plight is as serious as their making out.
Well if it is so good in detention centres why don’t you move into one? Remember these people have committed no crime yet are treated like criminals… worse in some cases.
Read the testimonies from psychiatrists and psychologists who have actually worked with these people – people like Jonathan Phillips, Louise Newman and Jon Juredeini. All eminent psychiatrists who have worked with people in detention.
Those who overstay their visa’s would be illegal, so why aren’t there any complaints from The Media and The Liberals and the likes of Cheryl regarding them?
Is it because they are hiding these illegals in their homes?
Cheryl do you mean 3 SQUARE MEALS a day? But you would no should be wondering if people like you can get any factual evidence, when you can’t even get your own comments right?
Cheryl, you are excused but don’t do it again. 😉
Cheryl thinks Asylum Seekers invaded Australia? I think this is called paranoid, which is what many if not all racists attacking Muslims have especially those from APP and AFP have.
That’s fair enough. I mean, if some people have been heavily traumatised by experiences in thier home country, fled for their lives, fearing constant deportations and threats from governments and groups, risk their life on a leaky boat….why not traumatise them some more?
It’s the same reason we take people who lost their homes in bushfires, and make them live on the streets. If they are desperate enough to leave the ashes of their old home, they should’nt be worried about sleeping on the sidewalk.
Armchair experts, armchair experts everywhere – look at all you armchair experts..
tl;dr
Reblogged this on It's Tagle. and commented:
Nice infographic on what is an ongoing issue in Australian politics.
My my, you all really don’t like anyone having an opinion that differs from yours.
I have neighbours on both sides of me who happen to be from the detention centres which gives me my views. One family is the nicest people you’d ever want to meet the other has the most revolting views on how they deem this country should be, if the father had his way all single mothers would be stoned to death, while the other is just greatful to be away from the horrors of what his family had to contend with. One demands our government owes him, the other feels gratitude.
Is it not wonderful that the country we live in has freedom of free thought. Your right I do think that some of these people are invaders whilst there are others coming on the boats that have a genuine reason for getting onto a floating coffin and its these people we should welcome with open arms. But we also have those with nasty and dangerously narrow minds that are caught up with politics from their home lands that should never be allowed to into the country and returned to face up to their mistakes. That is what the detention centres are for. To weed out the genuine from the not. And if they’re not return them home.
“My my, you all really don’t like anyone having an opinion that differs from yours. ”
Did you expect total acceptance? Part of having freedom of speech in this country means people can have an opnioion on your opinions. You do know that right? OR do you think freedom of speech means that everyone has to agree with everything that you, and only you, say?
“One demands our government owes him, the other feels gratitude.”
So….exactly like any other group in Australia. Some are grateful for government assistance, others complain it’s not enough. Sounds like the asylum seekers are fitting in well.
“Your right I do think that some of these people are invaders whilst there are others coming on the boats that have a genuine reason for getting onto a floating coffin and its these people we should welcome with open arms.”
Invader, really? How are they “invading”?
But we already have refugee determination processes, where people’s claims for asylum are assessed judged against the experiences and reports from this country, checked against others comments, to check for any inaccuracy.
If this is not sufficient, how do you propose we distinguish between “invader” and “genuine refugees”?
” That is what the detention centres are for. ”
And why is this a problem only Australia needs to do? I mean, France doesn’t detain people, England doesn’t detain people….why does only Australia need to detain people indefinitely without any possibility for release, even children?
We have plenty of home-grown people with extremist views, such as fundamentalist Christians, the far right of the Liberal Party and members of parties like the APP and AFP.
WE would love to deport all of them.
Cheryl what you have experienced with your 2 neighbors is not uncommon in the incidence of any migration group/assylum seekers/immigrants. those that complain & bring their old ways to the new country need to go back home, they are not progressive peoples & never will be, their feet are stuck in the mud with the “idea that single mothers should all be stoned to death”. But perhaps if they live long enough in their new home, perhaps some of our values will rub off on them.
One can only hope!
All migration groups have generational change, and all groups are different. The second generation migrant, who grew up in the country, are more integrated than their parents, and so on.
Incidentally, there are plenty of conservative Australians who have their feet stuck in the mud. But funnily enough, no one worries about them.
Canada’s short processing time is due to the fact that asylum seekers there arrive by aircraft with proper ID making the process easier.
I didn’t realise that Iraq and Afghanistan took a boat directly from their home countries – or is it they’re in a place where they’re not in any imminent danger and still don’t want to go through the proper processes to seek asylum in Australia because they know they can get processed sooner by paying a stupid sum of money to get on a dangerously leaky boat.
What countries are there that refugees from Iraq and Afghanistan can live safely, without risk of deportation or persecution, and settle, by being able to work legally?
And again, what is the proper process for an Afghani asylum seeker to apply for asylum in Australia?
The refugee debate is… Old. There’s no solution to this problem… Apart from maybe world peace, which lets be honest, will never happen. Krudd is simply doing what he can to get voted back in. Kinda selfish if you ask me.
I did a community services diploma at TAFE and there were (I think it was) 5 refugees in that class. They told their stories. It was heartbreaking. I used to have the old “send them back where they came from” mentality, until I heard those stories.
I guess there are a couple things I’m confused with.. Like what is the CORRECT way of seeking asylum? By plane? I honestly don’t know, if someone could clarify that for me I’d appreciate it. If the correct way is by plane, why don’t those going by boat, which is so unsafe, go by plane? After all the money they pay the people smugglers for that trip could surly fund a one way air ticket from the Middle East for example.
It’s a complicated issue.
Hi Jinky,
There is no proper way to apply for asylum or improper way. But, people who arrive on planes are generally better treated, and entitled to more support than those who arrive on boats. To give some examples, as long as you obey your visa restrictions, and the law, all asylum seekers who apply for asylum after arriving by plane, are allowed to work, access Medicare, and live in the community, outside of detention. It’s absolutely in their best interests to arrive by planes.
But, and ask anyone from a non-first world country about this for confirmation, the Government is highly skeptical of people coming to Australia, and resistant to give them tourist visas if they are concerned that they will never leave. My in-laws, who are from Vietnam, needed a written support letter from multiple family members, a health check, and a confirmation of home ownership in Vietnam to be allowed to come to Australia for their daughter’s wedding. My friends with Polish ancestry have stated the same situation applies for them as well.
When I worked with asylum seekers in Melbourne, the vast majority of applicants had arrived on student visas. Now, these visas can be easier to get than tourist visas, but they are much more expensive, and require a lot of preparation (English language tests, consultation between Australian education providers and local education providers). As a result, they tend to favour countries that have more infrastructure (Such as Pakistan or China), over countries that have little infrastructure (Afghanistan, Somalia).
Hope this helps.
Actually that helped me a lot. thank you for sharing your story. I cant belive they needed to confirm a home ownership. Thats appaling.
It doesn’t have to be home ownership, but they needed something to prove that they couldn’t live in Australia forever, and had an economic reason to return home. And they did arrive in the end, but didn’t apply for my brother in law to come with them, as he had very few reasons to return to Australia (No work, nor owning of a home).
What annoys me about it is how biased it is. To give a comparison, my sisters husband, and his family, are all English. English have a long history of overstaying, but needed no health checks, no credit checks, nothing, to allow them to come to my sister’s wedding. Other family members from Canada had no issues either. (That said, an English friend of mine who was offerred a sponsorship to live in Australia got an in depth health check when he applied for permanent residency, as the government was worried something may go wrong with his liver in the future. His response was “Firstly, I pay taxes and have paid taxes for a while to have medical coverage, and if it’s really a big problem I can just go back to England if my liver plays up and get it covered by the NHS for nothing!”)
Anyway, Mia, I’m glad I could help you. Being Australian born, and pretty much being able to go to any country I want without worrying too much about a visa means you don’t realise how hard it can be to come to Australia, even just as a tourist. Australia’s immigration system is better than most, in that it does provide clear pathways for study and skilled migration (Unlike the US-I read an article on immigration to the US which didn’t encourage illegal immigration, but stated there wasn’t a lot of other choices), and recognises and supports cultural diversity (Unlike European migration), but is still based on a culture of suspicion.
Hi Jinky,
There really is no one ‘correct’ way to seek asylum. There are many ways that are correct…and entering a country (by any means, with or without a visa or identity documents) and then claiming asylum on arrival is one of the correct and legal ways.
It is actually the most common way worldwide to claim asylum.
Compared to global standards Australia has very few claims for asylum.
Very few people actually come to Australia and then apply for asylum.
Until the past couple of years, most of the people who applied for asylum arrived by plain. (this is a method not available to people from certain regions of the world due to Australian officials not letting them on the plane here in the first place…).
Most of Australia’s humanitarian intake was made up of people who had entered another country and made a claim for asylum there, but then been sent to Australia for resettlement under the UNHCR resettlement program.
It is often said, incorrectly, that the ‘correct’ or ‘legal’ way to claim asylum is to go to a UN camp and be processed by the UN… but that method only accounts for around 17% of the world’s asylum claims, as it is not available to most asylum seekers.
The UNHCR process was set up to address the problems being experienced in countries such as Kenya, who receive huge numbers of asylum seekers and other displaced people, and who cannot realistically expect to process and resettle every one themselves. They simply do not have the resources.
So the UN process was set up so that wealthier countries such as Australia who receive very very few asylum applications would be able to help with resettlement of some of those people who the countries who receive the most applications could not resettle themselves.
It was never set up in order to let wealthier countries such as Australia get out of their obligations to process and resettle the small number of people who arrive here to claim asylum.
There are not many opportunities for asylum seekers to access UN offices to make a claim. There have only been 2 UN workers accepting and processing asylum claims in Indonesia. Even if an asylum seeker is able to find the UN office it can be quite risky for them to access it, as they risk arrest, detention and further persecution by Indonesian police if they attempt it.
However, a number of the people arriving in Australia by boat have actually already applied through the UN, and some have already been granted refugee status.
But have also been told that there is next to no chance of being resettled in a safe country if they remain in Indonesia.
So they have a choice of attempting to leave Indonesia and make it to somewhere (eg. Australia) … or… stay in danger indefinately (as in for decades or as it currently stands it may be the rest of their lives), where they risk arrest and jail if caught by the police, where they are not allowed to legally work, cannot access medical care, cannot legally rent or own a home, have no legal right to education for their children… or various other basic human rights.
Another method of claiming asylum is to apply directly to a country through an embassy/consulate.
I often see people online saying “why don’t they just go to any Australian embassy and do it that way?”
Well, it is a myth that a person can just go into any Australian Embassy and apply for asylum. Not all Australian embassies accept asylum applications, and this is particularly true in the countries where the majority of refugees are coming from or through.
It can also be particlarly dangerous to try to access a foreign embassy in some places.
If a person is at risk, then attempting to go to a foreign embassy can increase that danger greatly and can indeed be enough to see the person arrested and persecuted.
It is very very rare for an asylum seeker to be able to apply through an Embassy.
Another thing that many people miss understanding is that a person has to be outside of their own country in order to be able to make an application for asylum. They are not eligible for refugee status until they are in a foreign country.
So when Australians are claiming that a refugee should go elsewhere, to some other country and to a camp, and access the UN process… they are effectively saying “It’s fine for a refugee to be in some other less developed or well resourced country, it’s fine for them to go there without a visa, and for that country to have to deal with them… but they shouldn’t come to Australia”. Pretty hypocritical.
This is a handy little fact sheet from the Refugee Council about the topic of ‘proper’ channels.
The rest of it is good to read through also. 🙂
http://www.refugeecouncil.org.au/f/myth-long.php#channels
I think that anyone who genuinely is seeking asylum from persecution which would threaten their’s or they’re family’s lives should be given careful attention and assistance by our government.
However, I think that people who are simply queue jumping, who are possible criminals looking to escape justice and/or are into the people smuggling & slavery business(there is a large sex slave industry in Australia) as well as those who could possibly be terrorists attemtping to infiltrate our country(thus bypassing normal avenues of immigration vetting), should be interned and then returned to the ports where they came from.
How about putting up those percentages…..
Sounds paraoind? Check the facts, also, those who would be integrated into our country and way of life should be prepared to accept our laws, not try and apply they’re own once they’re given a new start.
1. There is no “queue”
2. The sex trafficking industry is run by locals, Australian nationals, not by refugees.
” who are possible criminals looking to escape justice”
We do security checks on all potential migrants to this country, including asylum seekers. These security checks, if anything, are too restrictive, resulting in people being held in detention indefinitely, because of a reason they’re not allowed to know (ASIO does not reveal findings).
“s(there is a large sex slave industry in Australia) ”
And this is largely come up through people on student visas, and temporary work visas. Do you have any examples of a criminal syndicate organising for sex workers to be moved into Australia by irregular martime arrival, when they know that if they have the money to spend they can organise for the slave to be sent to Australia much quicker through a student or temporary work visa?
“well as those who could possibly be terrorists attemtping to infiltrate our country(thus bypassing normal avenues of immigration vetting),”
But, here’s the thing. People who arrive by boat are not bypassing normal avenues of immigration vetting. They are subject to these procedures, just as all migrants are.
“How about putting up those percentages…..”
What percentages? Thep ercentages of boat people who turn out to be terrorists, or sex slaves? Easy-0%. Do you have any evidence to disprove this?
“Check the facts, also, those who would be integrated into our country and way of life should be prepared to accept our laws, not try and apply they’re own once they’re given a new start.”
Who exactly is trying to change the law in Australia? Please, be specific.
Lets look at new figures for 2012 instead of 2009 / 2010.
They look much the same
Here are some stats for 2012
Click to access australia-vs-rest-world-refugees-asylum-seekers___.pdf
Australia should not be looking at what other countries r doing on this issue. Look at the huge problems Europe has with its Muslim migrants and the cost to the tax payer. We need to take control of our own problem. The crime rate has gone up to 40% in the towns were these people r realised. Such as Dandenong. We’re expected to work till were 67 years old. While most of these people will be out off work for many, many years . The r no low skilled jobs for Australians, with big job losses on the news each week. It’s a multi billion dollar problem that had cost over 1000 life’s . As a result of the Greens and the labor party.
Australia should not be looking at what other countries r doing on this issue. Look at the huge problems Europe has with its Muslim migrants and the cost to the tax payer.
You have just contradicted yourself. How dumb.
The crime rate has gone up to 40% in the towns were these people r realised. Such as Dandenong.
Proof?
We’re expected to work till were 67 years old.
Much better for your psychological well-being than sitting in the pub or hanging out at the TAB
The r no low skilled jobs for Australians
Then get off your lazy arse and get some training. Why should privileged people be handed stuff on a platter? Anyway whatever you’ve done since you left school obviously didn’t include spelling.
“We’re expected to work till were 67 years old.”
The admin has already pointed out the mistakes you’ve made but just wanted to put this out. Not only do asylum seekers not cause you to work until you’re 67, having more of them reduces your need to work until you’re 67.
The reason the retirement age is being delayed is we have a lot of people getting older, and we don’t have enough young people to take their place and finance their pension. No asylum seeker, young and eager to work, means that there will be even less finances available to fund the pension.
“While most of these people will be out off work for many, many years .”
The migrants coming here are eager to work, and will be encouraged to work and study, just as all people on the newstart allowance are.
May I ask with a humble heart, what is the benefit in making this dialogue available & visible. Reading and replying to all this misinformation is a horrendous waste of time for those who are trying to help a bad situation. Nobody unbiased logs in to read these discussions.
So why not just turn off the source??? Shut down the comments as they are just absorbing much needed resources. Let dissenters go to their friends to air their complaints rather than giving them the public pulpit they crave but have not earned.
Take care all and kindly learn to play nicely.
It gives normal people a chance to see the pinheads in action and to realise what drives xenophobia in this country.
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Easy solution to cut costs is have the people posting on here complaining about how unfair it is to stop people coming by boat to have their direct pay reduced to pay for them 🙂 if you are so concerned about helping people, then set up a system to tax the people who are crying for them to be allowed in.
We could get rid of the racists and bigots and have a better country and far less strain on Centrelink.
Thats a cheap argument. The problem is the childish and immature responses by people like you. You cant even come up with a wiser argument then that.
Sounds fine to me. In return I would like that none of my taxes be used to pay for wars I disagree with, or the Australian Institute of Sport.
these numbers are from 2010. so the $340 mill spent on the 5600 boat people become $3 BILLION on the 50000 coming this year. that money should be spent on improving Australia, not keeping tabs on who comes here. stop the boats now!!!!
Well apparently Rudd’s strategy will stop the boats. So who are you going to hate next Dave? Asians who are 13% of the population? There’s always the Jews and Indigenous people as well.
Yeah your right it should be spent on improving ignorant people like you.
“Was Australian being swamped…” I think this needs to be shown as Asylum seekers per head. This would be a fairer comparison .. If I population of 25M has 10K compared to say the USA with 50K with 313M .. then the answer is yes. Also, I believe the issue with arriving by boat is two fold, firstly the lack of paperwork, those by air have passports and secondly the danger, these people are dying they need an alternative.
I think everyone needs reminding that the entire world is in this together and we all could have been an asylum seeker. We need to start taking care of each other and be more understanding. Alot of these people are escaping a life of pain and hunger. When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace…Who’d have thought jimi hendrix would get it so right. Open your minds and your hearts to the possibilities
I think they want to stop boats because people are dying on them. No-one seems to get that!
We are very cynical when the racists (and Scott Morrison) suddenly pretend to be concerned about asylum seekers drowning at sea when previously they were universally hostile to them. The hostility is still there – look at the posts on this thread. So is the confected concern.
Very good point.
I believe that if the people coming here are genuine refugees fleeing from a country that is in war or peril then they should be granted asylum. Who are we to try and judge what these people will do if they are granted permanent residence, just because a select few become welfare bludgers doesn’t mean they all will. I think we should do everything we can to help these people out to start a better life. I’m all for multiculturalism and believe Australia wouldn’t be what it is today without migrants. Where did we come from, if not as migrants from England, France, etc, and now we are turning them away. The people coming on those boats could’ve been your parents but instead we turn them away without a second thought and with NO opportunity of ever living in Australia? I think that’s wrong.
I agree with the sentiment, but some of the charts are very misleading. Look at the chart titled “was Australia being swamped by Asylum Seekers”. Now read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misleading_graph and see “improper scaling”. This makes the difference between Australia and the USA look far bigger than it is. There is a difference, to be sure, but there is no need for misleading graphics and overstating facts. Secondly, this graphic should be reporting per capita, not overall. I suspect that if both of these guides are followed the picture will look quite different.
It actually wouldn’t look much different. In terms of population, don’t forget that the US has over a million irregular immigrants from Latin American countries, principally Puerto Rico, Mexico and the Caribbean Spanish-speaking countries, who are not counted in the refugee and asylum seeker numbers.
here are some current (2012) stats about where Australia places on both refugees and asylum seekers using total, per capita, and GDP benchmarks.
Click to access australia-vs-rest-world-refugees-asylum-seekers___.pdf
The main issue is the cost – lets stop pussy footing around the massive amount of money we spend each year on this. I think when you consider the refugee crisis versus every day australians currently battling to make ends meet and the added stress on families, health, the current housing situation, high rental costs, the added difficulties many face getting into the market, as well as looking after our pensioners and their housing issues this is where the majority of Australians want their tax dollars being spent. There are also concerns about the number of refugees, not so much say in one year but when you compound that year on year then within 5years (which goes by pretty quick. Are our current governments sitting on enterprise that makes 300,000 new jobs each year? There are real bloody issues on the table, that has nothing to do with being ignorant, unitelligent, biggots, racist! Frrks sake –
“The main issue is the cost ”
Totally agree. And if we ended detention for all asylum seekers, beyond basic health and security checks, we would save so much money. Currently we are paying rent, bills, and three meals a day for asylum seekers who are in detention when we don’;t have to. It’s our irrational fear and racism which is costing us money, not asylum seekers.
The Pacific solution cost even more than the current detention scheme did, and the PNG scheme is likely to cost even more.
And again, there are problems in Australia, and almost all, if not all, are unrelated to issues regarding immigration. Let’s go through your problems:
” australians currently battling to make ends meet ”
Nothing to do with asylum seekers.
” health,”
Health issues are not any more overburdened by asylum seekers than they are the general population.
“the current housing situation,”
Asylum seekers are not impacting on the housing crises in the big cities anymore than any other group is.
” high rental costs, the added difficulties many face getting into the market, ”
Asylum seekers are no more able to get a house than the general Australian public, and have many things not working in the favour. Namely, no rental history. No work history. And little study history, at least in Australia. It’s quite hard getting a referee if you are a refugee, simply because you’re too new.
” as well as looking after our pensioners and their housing issues ”
Pensioners are in no way effected by asylum seeker intake.
“Are our current governments sitting on enterprise that makes 300,000 new jobs each year?”
Well, with more people entering the work force, this frees up the possibility for older people to retire (Reducing the retirement age, likely to be 70 by the time I can retire), allowing younger people do be promoted, and then allowing jobs at entry level to open. .
Also, migrants create jobs. I live in Shepparton, and let me tell you, there weren’t a lot of Afghani carpet stores, Afghani supermarkets, and Afghani restaurants prior to the settling of Afghanis in Shepparton. And this is nothing new-all new cultures create jobs.
“There are also concerns about the number of refugees, not so much say in one year but when you compound that year on year then within 5years”
Except, and this is not something I agree with, but something that does contradict your fear-the government has always regulated aslyum seeker numbers. They do this covertly (ie, when a largely scale refugee exodus occurs from one country, the government makes steps in finding reasons to dismiss the crisis in that country, as has happened with Sri Lanka, Pakistan and Afghanistan, and is happening with Vietnam and Iran), and overtly (As the number of asylum seekers accepted increases, the number of visas provided in other areas, particularly offshore migration, but other visas also, decreases).
I don’t like it. I don’t support it. But it prevents your fear of 300,000 new refugees every year.
our pensioners and their housing issues – most pensioners own their own homes. And they are not “your” pensioners. Stop trying to make political capital with them.
the current housing situation – an artificial shortage designed by developers and real estate agents to drive the prices up in capital cities where most people live. High costs – price-gouging of energy companies.
Are our current governments sitting on enterprise that makes 300,000 new jobs each year? – yes it’s called service industry and the more people here the more services (health, education, retail) needed
There are real bloody issues on the table, that has nothing to do with being ignorant, unitelligent, biggots, racist!
It has everything to do with being a racist bigot. And learn some economics before you try and argue with us.
Bingo
What? Did you just respond to the THE SALT, and ignore every post contradicting his statements?
I actually replied before I read your comments. You make good points also. Maybe there are cheaper ways of doing it. I’m not against helping people in need as.long as they really are and don’t bring more hardship on our country. We can’t be hardhearted but we also can’t be bad stewards of what we have and how far it will go. There has to be a happy medium.
I have concerns about the graph in the “is Australia swamped by asylum-seekers?” section.
While the number scale on the left seems fine, the area of the figures distorts the viewer’s perception of the numbers involved. We judge images like that proportionally, and the figure on the far left seems much greater than 5 times the size of the figure on the far right (the area IS far greater).
Please consider correcting the figures’ proportions to better represent the actual numbers.
Not our graphic to “correct”. Don’t try and dismiss what is presented there by criticising the presentation. The numbers themselves tell the story.
Why not look at the bigger issues here? Why do these people come here? Why are they being persecuted? Because of problems in their own countries that their own fellow countrymen have created.
The same people that create the problems in the country are the same people than then try to flee from it. And as sad as it is, it all stems from the religion they all practice, who’s archaic and hate filled values they then bring here and continue to practice.
In stead of integrating themselves into our culture, they segregate and create mini ghettos where they continue the same practices they did in the country the came from, except now they live of our Tax money, or get jobs helping the local insurance fraud scheme.
Instead of fleeing en-mass, they should gather and unite and affect change within their own countries. just like the French and Russians did.
To cut a long story short
“I don’t want refugees here cos I hate Muslims”
The problems in Iraq and Afghanistan were created by the US
Muslims cut off little girls genitals. Muslims beat and rape women and then jail them for having sex outside of marriage. Muslims give 9 year old girls to 50 year old men. Muslims consider all women inferior, dirty and no better than a dog. Fuck off Muslims and stay in your own country and kill each other. Don’t come here with your woman hating attitudes and your disgust at western values. Stay there and continue to shit over a hole in the ground you fucked up women haters. The U.S rocks!!!
Rocco
theflawed@gmail.com.au
123.2.113.114
IP Address: 123.2.113.114
ISP: Dodo Australia
Region: Perth (AU)
You lot don’t give a rats about women. Especially since you cannot get a date.
So there are problems in the Muslim community, particularly regarding women. Now, what does Rocco suggest?:
” Fuck off Muslims and stay in your own country and kill each other.”
So, you complain about Muslim marrying underage girls, worry about FGM, worry about legal restrictions on women, and arrest for sex outside marriage. All things that are far more common in Muslim countries than they are in Australia. And so because you worry about these things, you want women to be sent to places where they are far more likely to occur but you are less likely to see them.
So let’s not pretend you care about Muslim women. Or, indeed, any women.
As from July 26th my lawyer will be monitoring and viewing this site. She even tells me we may even be able to close this site down. After all the racist comments on this site, you “mindmadeup”, choose to make my email public. No one else’s, not one single person who has ranted on this page. Not the racists against Indigenous people or Asians. But me because I said some comments about Muslims . I have an opinion like everyone else in this world. If you don’t like it then I don’t care. I don’t have to like what you say but I wouldn’t make someones email and IPS address public. If you can’t take a comment then why are you on this forum. Like I said, this site from July 26th is under surveillance by my lawyer. And as ex military personnel I am obliged to follow through with any threat aimed against my family and my own security, including revealing my email address.
Rocco Andretti
As from the 26th of July this website will be under government surveillance. Mindmade up has made my email and IP address public so therefore I contacted my lawyer,my internet provider to change my IP address, and the Australian government.This website will be shut down once we have all the paper work in place.
Take down my isp and email address cunt or i will sue your fucking arse.
LIke I said my lawyer is going to fuck you up for posting my email and if that don’t work here’s an old family traditional gypsy curse for you. “annelnathrak delus petoot docyel diavendie.oosa bendi sokleno diavendie”. Choke on that!!!
” Because of problems in their own countries that their own fellow countrymen have created.”
Just for the record-is anyone allowed to flee their country? Because your rule of “People who flee their countries due to problems in their countries” kinda rules out everyone.
The Jews were fleeing problem in their own countries (Axis powers), because of problems their fellow countrymen (Hitler) was creating. Are we telling them to gather and unite and affect change?
“Instead of fleeing en-mass, they should gather and unite and affect change within their own countries”
Great idea. So let’s see how this plays out. You’re an Hazaragi young man in Afghanistan, working with your family. The Taliban make an incursion into your area and want to use you as a soldier/target practise (The planned treatment for all Hazara people in Afghanistan). Your parents can get together enough money to get you out of the country. What do you do? Fight against an army of Taliban, and die? Or get together other Hazara people, and get shot?
I look forward to your response. And I do hope it doesn’t show yet another person saying simplistically “Solve your own problems” while never actually having severe problems that others have to flee from.
“. just like the French and Russians did.”
Oh, I’m sorry-like the French and Russians did? This is your ideal response? Gullotines and genocide? Both of which lead to a large number of asylum seekers (Even in the 18th century).
well said..I don’t want that religion in this country on masse…ask the dutch and the French how its going for them with there big muslim intakes….not good I can tell you….the same hatreds and beliefs that create the problem in those countries are then brought over here…sure multiculturism is an ok thing done slowly and thoughtfully..now if I am a racist then so be it…..hey I don’t like some breeds of dog either even though they are all dogs…PC just goes to far sometimes, and the older and wiser I get I see the same folly from others I did when I thought I knew everything
and all people were nice to each other and it was all peace and love beads…then I grew up and 6the reality of life and the mad cruel things I saw and heard changed my mind. we are very primitive really and most of it comes from religion ….any religion and all religion…
Since you belong to that idiot group Ban Islam no doubt they’ve filled your head with their Nazi-style propaganda. That group is full of nutjobs, criminals and wackos. Do you really want to be associated with them?
Multiculturalism has been a part of Australia forever. Muslims in this country are a tiny minority and I doubt if you’ve ever seen one where you live. Use your brain and stop reading Murdoch papers and listening to Bolt and Jones.
“we are very primitive really and most of it comes from religion ….any religion and all religion…”
So, to be clear, you want to ban all religion?
“the same hatreds and beliefs that create the problem in those countries are then brought over here”
Have you ever actually met and talked with real life Muslims? I just wonder because like many people who complain about Islam, it’s common to have less experience with Muslims than they would Dinosaurs.
Some good points here also.
The image “Was Australia being swamped by asylum seekers?” is the typical way of statistic smoke and mirrors.
If you actually do the maths and work it out based on how many asylum seekers per 100,000 of the population and providing my maths is correct, Australia takes in twice as many as America.
It could be my maths is wrong, but here are the values, per 100,000 pop, America takes nearly 16, and Australia nearly 44.
Who counts by per 100,000 of the population? I mean, I literally can’t find any site that measures asylum seeker claims that way?
Instead, we can measure by total number of applications received (Australia is 33rd in asylum applications, South Africa is number 1), per capita (Australia is 41st), or relative to national wealth (Australia is 71st).
Source: http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/1294102/At-a-glance-Who-takes-the-most-asylum-claims
here are some current (2012) stats on where we sit compared to the rest of the world, and compared to other industrialised countries, in both total numbers, per capita and for GDP.
Click to access australia-vs-rest-world-refugees-asylum-seekers___.pdf
As for the checking – Captain Ahab [located with ease by Four Corners ABC-TV] apparently was cleared and funded by we taxpayers so he could continue people smuggling from within.
This week there is a TV program citing ‘even repeated rapes’ on Naru. We certainly should fast track these people – we need more rapists in Australia NOT. The locals call our buildings on Naru ‘club med’. These have just been burnt to the ground. Gratitude. BTW America fires at Mexicans illegally crossing their borders. Calling illegal aliens ‘asylum seekers’ doesnt wash with the good ol USA.
And your point is?
Calling illegal aliens ‘asylum seekers’ doesnt wash with the good ol USA.
I like to think we are better than the country which maintained slavery long after the rest of the Western world had abolished it, the country with regular school and college gun massacres, the country which invented the KKK…
We should not take our so-called “border protection” policies from the US. They are racist (just look at Arizona’s Nazi-style immigration laws) and lethal for people whose only “crime” is to cross the Mexican border.
Asylum seekers do not have to be “grateful” for being locked up despite not having committed a crime.
“This week there is a TV program citing ‘even repeated rapes’ on Naru. ”
What tv program is that?
Incidentally, all asylum seekers get security screenings before being released. No one ia arguing otherwise. And if any of them ever attempt a sexual assault, they are deported once convicted.
“BTW America fires at Mexicans illegally crossing their borders.”
And now they offer the Mexicans path to citizenship, because they realised their previous system of being hardline of immigrants wasn’t working.
Hi JM and Mindmadeup – thanks for fighting a difficult battle against the huge tide of boganism surrounding this subject; just a shame PNG isn’t big enough to send a good proportion of these ignorant, selfish pricks there 😦
The people of PNG don’t deserve those ignorant selfish pricks. A barren rock in the Southern Ocean hundreds of kilometres from real humans would be a good choice.
When they get here, give them enough petrol & food to get back. If they keep capsizing boats to soften our hearts, shoot the smugglers.
So would you have liked that treatment when you came out here for ten quid?
You weren’t in fear of your life were you – cold weather, rain. a Council house and the Tories don’t cut it compared to torture, rape and murder.
Given the massive problems in France directly due to the ever increasing Muslim population France would be the last place I would wishing Australia to like. There are so many “no go” places in France it makes a total mockery of the term multi-cultureism. There are many examples of abuse of the system and just one example is Mexico who have closed their borders to undocumented migration,from all countries other than the US. There they actively encourage illegal entry into the US while preventing access from poorer countries on its borders. .
You wouldn’t want to go to the banlieux of Paris anyway. Huge blocks of run-down concrete apartments. Any wonder the unemployed youth there are restless.
There are no “no-go” areas in Paris – in the Paris visitors would want to see.
Yet another “I’m not racist/bigoted but…” post.
Oh that’s a problem in France. Good thing we’re not France, and as this article shows, our definition of multiculturalism is very different from Europe’s:
http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/mongrelnation/4829014
I dont agree with extended processing times and detention. However, it must be pointed out that Australia is a very resource poor country in terms of water and food to sustain a growing population. Unlike Europe or USA our fertile land is a very small portion of the continent. Further to this if you asses the numbers a little further, there are 0.004545 asylum seekers for every Australian, yet in the USA there are 0.00015 per USA citizen (roughly, these numbers are asylum seekers/ rough total populations)). So there is effectively 30 times more asylum seekers per capita of our own population. QUestions are how does this effect our economy, social security, housing, homeless population (increase?) etc..
So it easy to make the numbers show a point of view.
I wish we could let all asylum seekers in immediately. They’ve suffered long enough, and took a huge risk in getting here. I hope we can do something to reduce their wait times, send back the fraudulent folk and welcome in those that genuinely need out help.
Excuse me-we are not resource poor in terms of food. I live in the frickin’ food bowl of Victoria, Shepparton-we don’t have enough people eating the food. We export a hell of a lot of food, something actually food poor countries (Such as China and Japan do not do!
Yes we need a better water management system, but we don’t have a problem with good.
As for the per capita ranking, read this article:
http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/1294102/At-a-glance-Who-takes-the-most-asylum-claims
Australia is 41st in asylum seeker applications on a per capita range, South Africa is number 1.
Like your post 🙂
Slanted statistics from people who don’t favour the govt stance on boat arrivals. If you stop and look and think about the stats some of it is quite obvious. E.g. Boats and plane surveillance costs more to operate then a car to investigate. Air arrivals only arrive in ones and twos boat people arrive with 50+ plus footage released by govt. makes for easier story.
Don’t be hoodwinked by slanted facts people!
” E.g. Boats and plane surveillance costs more to operate then a car to investigate. ”
And that’s the main costs, is it? Not the detention where we pay for all food and living costs everyday they are in detention?
“Air arrivals only arrive in ones and twos boat people arrive with 50+ plus footage released by govt. makes for easier story.”
Except that’s not the argument the article is making. It’s not saying “Which group of asylum seekers are easier to turn into a story”-it was showing which group do we get more of. And asylum seekers arriving by boat are significantly outnumbered by those arriving by plane.
True, we may only get a handful of asylum seekers by each plane. But we get a lot of planes coming to Australia everyday!
Net number of boat people is a meaningless statistic. It’s like saying India is a rich country because it has the ninth largest economy. How about showing the numbers per capita…? Australia is second in the world – much more generous than your propaganda suggests.
Per capita, Australia is 41st in asylum seeker applications:
http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/1294102/At-a-glance-Who-takes-the-most-asylum-claims
Not as generous as your lack of evidence suggests.
All I would like is a more extensive infographic or data set which gives the CURRENT statistics as well as per capita information to allow me to do other comparisons.
I hope I don’t wind up being abused or harangued by people for asking for the facts.
I also hope I don’t ever need to claim asylum, but if I do I hope I am treated fairly and in a timely fashion.
Can anyone point me to a reliable source of the type of data that allows for a picture of the scope, cost and relative importance of the current situation to emerge. I would obviously prefer sources which try to present the issue without seeking to colour my view.
To be well-informed seems to be a reasonable starting point for developing an opinion.
Hi.
Here are some 2012 stats, including where we sit in totoal number, number per capita and GDP.
I hope that helps 🙂
Where?
Oops. Sorry! I forgot to add the link.
Here:
Click to access australia-vs-rest-world-refugees-asylum-seekers___.pdf
Thanks 🙂
Wrong. Those statistics are from >4 years ago…
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/opinion/if-only-other-countries-took-as-many-refugees/story-e6frgd0x-1226429418748
If you don’t have a subscription, here’s the image: http://postimg.org/image/etun48xcn/
Also, the stats you included show the number of refugees ‘hosted’ by a country i.e. the place where refugees TEMPORARILY reside… Another completely meaningless stat. Of course Australia ‘hosts’ less refugee compared to most country – we’re an Island and not land-locked in a war-torn location. The resettlement numbers tell the real story.
Please get informed.
If you’d like another interesting stat I suggest you look up how many refugees are still on unemployment benefits are 5+ years.
There are > 12 million displayed refugees around the world. Are you suggesting we take all of them? If not, you have not moral authority on this issue – we are simply arguing numbers.
I’m done with this propaganda website.
PS. I just had a brief skim through your link to the UNHCR 2009 Global trends dossier that you linked, here’s an interesting quote (found under ‘Resettlement’ p12):
“During 2009, a total of 112,400 refugees were admitted by 19 resettlement countries, including the
United States of America (79,900), Canada (12,500), Australia (11,100), Germany (2,100), Sweden
(1,900), and Norway (1,400). Overall, this was one quarter above the total for 2008 (88,800) and the
highest level since 1995 (134,100).”
Divide those number by the countries population and see what numbers you get…
“If you’d like another interesting stat I suggest you look up how many refugees are still on unemployment benefits are 5+ years.”
Just on this point, it’s interesting to point out that this shocking article was only applying to groups who had been effected by the Howard Government’s Temporary Protection Visas. These visas:
-Did not grant permanent residency, discouraging employers from employing refugees after arriving (Employers don’t want someone whose visa is not secured)
-Blocked access to free English language classes all other refugees are entitled to.
Again, why are we counting per head of population-surely the monetary wealth of the country is a better example of capacity to look after refugees than population number?
“There are > 12 million displayed refugees around the world. Are you suggesting we take all of them?”
Why is it always the case of “You want to help people-but you can’t help all of them!”-this is a nirvana fallacy. Of course we can’t assist them all, on our own, immediately, right at this second. No one is saying that.
Regarding the welfare receipt of refugees after 5 years:
http://www.news.com.au/national-news/a-world-of-long-term-welfare-for-refugees/story-e6frfkvr-1226050161428
The report was published in 2011. 5 years before 2011 was 2006-when we had TPV’s in place (Only getting rid of them in 2008).
And the key restriction, as this wiki page shows, is that those on TPV’s could not access free English classes, unless they were a child:
This page also shows that those on TPVs had to reapply for their visa three years later, in case the situation in their home country had changed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temporary_protection_visa
Try and find a job in those circumstances, tell me how you go. Try and find a job while being unable to speak the main language, and not being confident you’ll still be in the country three years later.
Good to know. 🙂
I agree baggins,
This is nothing but a propaganda site, and anyone who challenges or disagrees with what you’re preaching are put down and cursed at or labeled racist, it’s disgraceful!
If you want to put your point across “mindmadeup” do it with something that has some substance, not by misleading people with 5 y/old stats, if you want a relevant discussion please provide relevant factual information.
This country does have a serious problem with border control and illegal immigrants and anyone who believes otherwise is simply mislead and misinformed. Everytime an illegal boat arrives, it cost Australian taxpayers on average an unbelievable $12.8 million. That’s money that could be invested in infrastructure to grow our economy or used to reduce our taxes by paying off our $7 billion in interest we owe. Australia comes first, then the rest of the world.
Back up your $7 billion figure with proof or it is just a brain fart.
Since no one is going to invade Australia in the foreseeable future, “border control” should mean quarantine to keep out human, animal and plant diseases and keeping out illicit drugs.
We have a customs service and Federal Police for that.
It does not mean hiding behind the sofa because we happen to have a lot of non-white non-Christian people coming in the vast majority of whom are immigrants with skills and qualifications this country needs
“anyone who challenges or disagrees with what you’re preaching are put down and cursed at or labeled racist, it’s disgraceful!”
I have not sworn, nor called anyone a racist. I presented contrary data, as has Ali. However people tend to ignore it.
“Everytime an illegal boat arrives, it cost Australian taxpayers on average an unbelievable $12.8 million. ”
Source for that. Any?
“Australia comes first, then the rest of the world.”
And how exactly are you making Australia a better place?
“Everytime an illegal boat arrives, it cost Australian taxpayers on average an unbelievable $12.8 million. ”
Source is Today Tonight, forget reality.
Um you kind of insinuated I was racist 😦
No, you said you weren’t racist because you had a Peurto Rican husband. I told you that didn’t mean anything.
Yes but you still insinuated I could be like Hitler and have friends of other races but still be racist… if you weren’t implying that what were you implying?
All I was implying was what I was saying-having a partner of a race doesn’t suddenly mean you can’t be racist, anymore than having non-white friends suddenly means that you can’t be racist.
It seems, rather than me insinuating anything, you were insinuating that your fearful comments directed towards the Mexican comments couldn’t possibly be racist because you have a puerto rican husband. But you were also showing that you thought your comments could be considered racist if not for that (Hence the “I don’t want to sound racist here….”).
So I put it to you, that you only mentioned your husband because you are aware that your feelings about Mexicans do come from fear, ignorance, and racism, but rather than deal with these issues yourself internally, by challenging them, questioning how they are not hateful and divisive beliefs, you instead tell yourself “But I don’t hate my husband, therefore I am not racist”
If you were not insinuating this, please tell me why you made the following comment:
“I’m trying hard not to be or sound racist here, maybe if I mention I am married to a Puerto Rican it may help that,”
I think its because these are only words here, with no tone of voice or body language to add to the meaning so it can be misinterpreted that way…plus nobody knows me personally so that can add to the confusion. I hope I am not racist truly it is hard to really know or judge that myself let alone someone else who knows nothing of me to judge it…maybe a comment may sound that way but I truly don’t want it too. I apologize if I came across that way.
hhhmmmmm, here’s what comes up in diversity training. Everyone has judgements and beliefs based on race. To try and not have them is very hard, and leads to trying to find easy ways to excuse those behaviours without actually having to change them (“I have an Asian friend-I don’t have to be worried about being racist now” for example).
However, what isn’t impossible is knowing what those judgements are, realising you have them, and bear them in mind when making decisions. This not only prevents an underlying racist belief, which can be harmless if controlled and understood, into an overt act of racism, which will hurt many people; it can also help slowly break down the underlying racist belief.
For example, when I moved to Shepparton I was wary of African youths, because where I lived we didn’t have a large African community. If I passed them in the street, my heart would start beating heavily, and I started moving a bit faster. So I explored that belief, asked myself why I felt that way, realised it was based on nothing, and ignored those feelings. I still had them, but I didn’t let them change the way I acted. And because I wasn’t letting those feelings control me, it allowed me to open up my life to include African colleagues, clients and friends. Suddenly they didn’t seem so scary anymore, and the underlying fear begins to dissolve.
Everyone can do this. Find out what your underlying fear is, and it’s not about language, it’s about having a lot of Mexicans in one area. Find out why you feel that way-and decide whether this is a feeling that actually benefits you and is based on reality, or if it is an instinctive response based on fear. You can’t always block your instincts, but you can be aware of them, moderate them, and stop them from overly influencing your actions.
JM I’m not scared of Mexicans, I have a lot of good friends that I lived near/next to and worked with who were Mexicans. Just like any other group of people, some were rude and obnoxious and some weren’t. Australians have long held a certain opinion of Americans in general and I don’t think I need to spell that one out. Maybe you did, don’t and/or no longer hold that opinion and I’m glad if you don’t cause there are a lot of great people in this country who contradict Aussie’s opinion of them. I’m still working on my own family incidentally :-/….anyway…the only thing underlying my opinion on them as a whole is my experiences with them over the 8 years here and the inside info I have heard and read about along the way. I do think I need to reconsider how I feel about them as a whole and about their true effect on the societies they live in, you and Ali and others have made good points I hadn’t considered before and I appreciate that and plan to discuss it with my more informed and intelligent husband who helps me form a lot of my opinions. 🙂
“I’m not scared of Mexicans, I have a lot of good friends that I lived near/next to and worked with who were Mexicans. ”
But at the same time, you talk about them “Invading” “Taking over” and state they need to “Eat, dress and look like Americans”-how is that not a fear?
“Just like any other group of people, some were rude and obnoxious and some weren’t. ”
But you’re distinguishing from Mexicans in particular. Why? Are they any more prone to rudeness than anyone else?
“the inside info I have heard and read about along the way. ”
But sometimes, as you say, that inside info is coming from racist people who may not be telling the truth. I mean, you’ve brought forward a few absolute hoaxes about welfare benefits and taxation of illegal immigrants-I’m pretty sure you got them from someone who was not telling the truth.
Yes, but if you look at the amount we take per head of population, we come out on top. It is simply not fair to put the worlds refugees as Australia’s problem.
I am not arguing with you.
Just want to see the evidence for your assertion regarding the per capita ranking of Australia from a reliable source.
Can you direct me there please?
Ali answered your question:
Click to access australia-vs-rest-world-refugees-asylum-seekers___.pdf
If you have evidence which contradicts this I look forward to seeing it.
I look forward to Dan evidence, that is not from The Media such as Today Tonight and News Ltd papers to prove his claims is the truth?
But people like Dan and confused has proven no matter how much evidence you give them, they still won’t believed it, as it doesn’t agreed with the BS they get from say Today Tonight.
Nope:
Click to access australia-vs-rest-world-refugees-asylum-seekers___.pdf
We come 16th out of 44 industrial nations.
It is a waste to provided even more evidence to someone like Dan, when he doesn’t even believe the evidence above in picture and numbers form.
And lack of research, memory lost there and you don’t care Dan, when it comes to people being killed and injured by Non-Islamic people and groups like The IRA, Real IRA, ETA, Red Army, UniBomber, etc etc etc?
PS You should speak to others like from Loose Change who wants to make money at the expense of people deaths, as these nutcases think there was no hijacked planes it was just a Hollywood effect and explosions laid by those from The USA Government.
Having a tumbleweed moment there Baggins/ A.C./ Mangwell and co? You have the updated stats you couldn’t be arsed to get yourselves and now you fall silent.
Why don’t you address the issue instead of placing blame on Asylum seekers for all the problems that Australia have because I’m getting a little tired of the repetitive rhetoric re money, economy, population and covert religious indoctrination etc. They are not the issue and you are throwing up sand to try to hide the obvious.
To echo Mia and JM:
Click to access australia-vs-rest-world-refugees-asylum-seekers___.pdf
There, you have the stats right in front of you in black and white from 2012. Disembowel it and undermine it at your leisure but I anticipate that you will find that this is evidence is from a credible source. But hey, continue on peddaling your propaganda pantomine if it helps to validate your own fear of asylum seekers. (If we really cared about people and cost, we would do the sensible thing and process these people onshore). And it’s saddening to know that instead of addressing the issue, our leaders have elected to criminalise the most needy people of this world and I say the most needy because last year, our own officials found that 90% of people that asked for help via boat were found to be genuine. 90% of these people were found to be genuine, a vast majority. So with the facts in place, why the hell are we shutting the door on them when we already take advantage of loopholes in the system to try to get out of helping asylum seekers such as excision.
I didn’t elect a government that would shut the door on 100 desperate people for fear that 10 of them ‘might’ not be as desperate as we would have liked them to be. Our fear rules supreme indeed. This is a cop out. Stats or no stats, we have failed to maintain a promise that we made to help and protect the most displaced people of the world and it’s frustrating to know that our bogots are being pandared to.
Hats off to you JM and MMU for fighting the good fight.
More good points. Thank you
“lies damn lies and statistics” – Yes the USA looks big on the graph. Then again it has a population, and a GDP, of more than 10 times ours. I’m not saying this to defend the current situation, just to highlight that these “cute” diagrams don’t really present a strong case.
Then read the figures and do your own spreadsheet. If you don’t like the presentation we charge for our services.
…and just look at all the problems France has with its multiculture!! Look beyond 8 days I say!!!
France’s “problems” with multiculturalism started with its less-than-savoury colonial past, extended to jumping into bed with the Nazis in WWII and selling out its Jews and the Maquis to the Gestapo and continued through the late 20th Century and beyond as various right-wing politicians raised fears of firstly the Algerians then an assortment of non-Gallic citizens including Roma, others from its former colonies (black people and Asians) and lately Muslims. Sarkozy managed to get a great deal of political mileage from the handful of Muslim women who wore religious dress until the French finally saw through him and voted him out.
ironically France was also a home for many African-American performers who relished the freedom they had, including the freedom to enter mixed-race marriages, compared to the racism they encountered back home. It seems that cultural appreciation trumps mindless racism even in ethnocentric France.
Any communal conflicts at the moment are fuelled by the activities of the likes of the neo-Nazi Front National and the tendency of the mainstream right of French politics to race to the bottom any time an election is in the offing.
So if you want to believe Marine Le Pen’s lies then go ahead and look like an idiot.
Your figures are completely bogus. The number of people arriving in Australia to claim asylum jumped by more than a third last year to 15,800 people, driven by an increase in arrivals from Sri Lanka, Afghanistan and Pakistan. Australia resettles the third largest number of refugees of any country per capita, but actual Australia’s asylum seeker numbers, while politically sensitive, remain numerically small. The United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR) says Australia receives about three per cent of the total asylum claims made in industrialised countries around the world and, “by comparison, asylum levels in Australia continue to remain below those recorded by many other industrialised and non-industrialised countries”. Remember per head of poplulation Australia take more than any other country.
Whose figures?
Nice cut-and-paste from right wing blog Catallaxy
Umm, did you read your comment before you posted it? your unsourced comment:
““by comparison, asylum levels in Australia continue to remain below those recorded by many other industrialised and non-industrialised countries”. ”
I’m glad we can agree. Asylum seekers are not swampning Australia at all.
Yeah I’d agree. People forget that our population is only 24 million, and we don’t want that to be made up prodominantly of refugees. Good call Rauf lala, you hit the nail on the head.
“People forget that our population is only 24 million, and we don’t want that to be made up prodominantly of refugees.”
Which there is literally no chance of happening. Seriously-our main source counties of migrants, not refugees or asylum seekers specifically, but all migrants from 2010-2011 were:
New Zealand,
China,
United Kingdom
India, and
The Phillipines
These numbers are fairly consistent over time as well. Now of those countries, only China has any significant number of asylum seekers arriving.
Here’s my source:
http://www.immi.gov.au/media/fact-sheets/02key.htm
So your fear of Australia being predominantly made of of refugees is about as likely to be realised as a fear that australia is to be made up predominantly by Unicorns.
I came by this forum and have been following the debate – I though it was interesting and on the whole, well conducted. Until I got to the comment by Rocco, which is astoundingly ignorant and offensive. But it was the response by mindmadeup that made my jaw drop. Wow. Outing someone’s private email and ISP address on a public forum. Despite the forum conditions stating that your email is never made public. What a bully. It’s a shame when someone responds to someone else’s bad behaviour by dropping into the gutter with them. The internet is full of trolls and haters, but I have never, ever seen an instance like that. It should result in automatic exclusion. Why didn’t you or the moderator just block them? Shame on you, mindmadeup. And don’t bother responding, I’m not coming back. This is an unsafe space, despite the fact that I’m on the same side of the debate that you are.
1. We don’t play nice here where racists and bigots are concerned.
2. “Just blocking them” means they think they have won. That’s how their tiny psychotic warped minds work.
3. Not coming back? Meh.
Yeah how about I post your email fuckhead. Whatever happened to free speech? Don’t bother sending me emails coz my lawyer has got that account and she’s looking over it and seeing if we can sue your arse for false advertisemnet and trolling..Put your private email up and see what happens you wimp. And by the way your comment about me not getting a date is so laughable. I happen to love women and I love my wifes genitals coz she still got her clitoris, not like many poor suffering Muslim women suffering at the hands of their prick husbands. So go ahead make my day motherfucker. I didn’t go to Iraq for nothing. I went to fight for freedom for all women of Islam,and freedom from Muslim fuckwits that want to stop the western way of life!
Explain this than mind made up. I used to live next to a suburb that had taken in a lot of refugees, I was delivering a flyer for a local event and I noticed that all the letterboxes in the street and most of the streets for that matter, were smashed, vandalized or missing. I spoke to an older lady who was doing some gardening and she said that she saw the people vandalize the letterboxes, but she didn’t think that there was much she could do, because she did not want to become a target. She said that ever since the refugees settled in the neighborhood they have stolen things and in large groups go around vandalizing property such as letterboxes.
These are refugees, this is where I used to rent.
So you take your crime statistics from little old ladies? Did you think of speaking to the police or were you after confirmation bias?
The response that I got from most people was that there was nothing that they could do. The lady I was talking to has enough marbles to know what was happening she was probably about 70 or so, quite a capable lady, I knew exactly who she was talking about. It’s like they owned a section of the neighbor hood. The lady said to me that if she says anything people will call her a racist. This is whole letterboxes destroyed for no good reason. They smoke marijuana openly on the street. They come from a vastly different world. I’d like to have some follow ups on how refugees do settle in.
“The response that I got from most people was that there was nothing that they could do.”
Wait, she has a direct view of the people committing a crime, but can;t do anything? not even file a police report?
” The lady said to me that if she says anything people will call her a racist
She goes to the police, says “I saw people destroying letter boxes-and can describe them. I’m fairly certain whereabout they live” and she’d immediately be called racist now will she?
Listen, I’ve only had to report people, thankfully, twice to the police. And both times while I did mention skin colour (Slightly tanned, and white in case you were wondering), no accusations of “Racist!” were made.
“They smoke marijuana openly on the street. ”
And the reason you didn’t tell the police this is…..why? I mean, it’s not just refugees that smoke marijuana.
“They come from a vastly different world. ”
No, i’s still Earth. Unless….you have alien refugees living in your neighborhood? You should definitely let someone know that.
” I’d like to have some follow ups on how refugees do settle in.”
You could ask them. Just a thought.
I mean seriously, your complaint seems to boil down to: “Refugees are committing crimes, and while I know who they are and have an eyewitness, and police could easily come and intervene, but I can’t be bothered making a police report so…..I’ll just state that all refugees are criminals instead and judge an entire community on the acts of a few, not bothering to try and find any alternative information”
I’m not sure what the stats are on the total refugee and migrant population in Australia… but you may be interested to know that asylum seekers in Australia are 43 times LESS likely to commit a crime than the general Australian population.
Yep, that’s representable. So all refugees are criminals because one street he lived on had one reported case of letter box vandalisation, and this started after asylum seekers turned up. This is absolute proof-refugees are all criminals. To hell with criminal statistics-Dan has one case study.
How about I give you another, that should bolster you…unless you read it. Where I live, in Shepparton, some residents have noticed an increase in crime. They’ve noticed bricks being thrown in through their windows, their family being threatened, their house being robbed repeatedly, and there was even one case of a sexual assault. and this only happened after refugees moved in.
Sounds convincing….except the person being robbed was a refugee, the person having their windows smashed was a refugee, the person having their family threatened was a refugee, and even the woman being sexually assaulted was a refugee. And the perpetrators….angry white teens, and their families.
So now with you one example of mail box vandalism proving all refugees are criminals, and my example of three separate families being harrassed by local families upon arrival presumably (according to your logic) proving all white people are criminals, presumably everyone should be arrested.
I await sentencing.
One case? They were causing problems all the time. Fights with other locals at night, literally taking over areas of the suburb.
I was about to call the police with one fight at night that thankfully resolved itself, but I ended up moving not long after.
“Fights with other locals at night,”
Gosh. Sounds shocking. It’s a good think literally no Australian born resident has ever had a fight at night, right? No one, in the history of Australia has ever had a fight outside a pub or nightclub until refugees turned up, right?
” literally taking over areas of the suburb.”
You mean figuratively. Unless you’re honestly telling me rather than yuo choosing to move you were kidnapped and planted in another suburb.
“I was about to call the police with one fight at night that thankfully resolved itself, but I ended up moving not long after.”
So there are people causing problems in your area. You know them, see who they are, and are ready to call the police, but because ONE fight resolved itself, you did nothing, and instead moved later on while complaining that “ALL refugees are criminals”.
If, when you move, you’ve got white neighbours, who smoke marijuana on the street (As many people irrespective of their skin colour do), vandalise property (As many people irrespective of skin colour do) and have fights with locals at night (As again, many people irrespective of skin colour do) will you again just move, rather than calling the police, and start to complain that all white people are causing problems.
And stuff you ignored:
1) So now with you one example of mail box vandalism proving all refugees are criminals, and my example of three separate families being harrassed by local families upon arrival presumably (according to your logic) proving all white people are criminals, presumably everyone should be arrested, right?
Here’s an article you might like regarding refugees and crime. I mean, it’s not second hand testimony combined with your own correlation-as-causation interpretation (Next up-“I’ve noticed since refugees have moved into my area-the winters have gotten warmer. Refugees therefore control the sun!”), but it’s a good read nonetheless:
http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/2732220.html
Yeah sure, I’ll read your article, I really am interested in what the statistics have to say.
I really look forward to a response to this, because for a lot of us who have seen problems of resettled refugees first hand, all this talk is a bit hard to swallow. Sure some of them might be nice, and it might be a new life, but what about communities that live in fear because of large groups of refugees that are basically causing problems. I actually did not go in certain areas because I did not feel safe, I am not kidding.
We’d prefer refugees as neighbours – I had an Afghan family near me and they used to look after our place, feed animals etc when we were away.
I would not have trusted any bogots to do that.
Delete my IP and email address cunt or i will find you!! I didn’t go to Iraq as a cook. Do you understand what that means dickface!! I will find you and don’t believe I won’t. I have friends in very high military places that know their shit and can hack into anyone’s life and fuck it up. So delete it cunt or you will go down!!!!
Like I said take down my email and IP address or my lawyer will fuck you over
” because for a lot of us who have seen problems of resettled refugees first hand, ”
You didn’t see it first hand. You heard it from someone else, and then drew your own conclusions separate from the report. This is at best second hand.
” Sure some of them might be nice, and it might be a new life, but what about communities that live in fear because of large groups of refugees that are basically causing problems”
And what about large group of Australians that are basically causing problems? Sure some Australians may be nice, and just trying to get along, but others harrass and abuse. Surely we need to get rid of them too, along with those trouble making refugees.
This is what’s called white privelege, Dan. You have it. I have it, but at least I’m aware of it. It’s the assumption that everyone who is white is “normal” and isn’t responsible for what anyone else who is white does, but at the same time expecting all non-white people to be held to account for something that any other white person does.
As Alanzo Bowden says “A White guy sees a police car go past he wonders what happened. A black guy sees a police car go pasts he hopes that nobody who looks like him has done anything wrong”
Do you think that’s fair, Dan? Is it okay to expect all non-white groups to be held accountable for whatever an individual of this group does, while not holding ourselves to that same account?
” I actually did not go in certain areas because I did not feel safe, I am not kidding.”
What places? What places didn’t you feel safe? What made you feel unsafe? Did you have any rational reason for feeling unsafe? Think about this for a second-the problem may be your perception rather than reality. For a long I couldn’t walk on the same street as a dog for a fear of dogs-that does not mean that all dogs are evil and should be got rid of-it was my own fear that was the problem.
Living in a town, Shepparton, with a large Aboriginal, African, Afghani and Iraqi population there isn’t a single place I don’t feel comfortable, including a mosque. Having previously lived in Melbourne, I can say that same for there too.
I understand what you are saying, there are good and bad in all races and groups, I think that to say Refugees are great and we should take more completely ignores some of the very real problems we have seen with Refugees.
Look at other countries where the refugees are rioting and taking over Australia does not have to copy the rest of the world, we are out on our own in the Southern hemisphere, we should really learn from some of these other countries.
” ignores some of the very real problems we have seen with Refugees.”
What problems? As you’ve said there are good and bad in all groups-what evidence do you have that refugees are any more prone to crime than any other group in society?
“Look at other countries where the refugees are rioting and taking over ”
Good thing Australia isn’t another country then, isn’t it? That’s what gets me about you-you’re so eager to ignore the many differences in different countries, trying to see Australia somehow as England 20 years ago, or some crap like that. You’re probably talking about Europe, but Australia is not Europe, and our view of multiculturalism has always been different. In fact, many European nations are looking at us to wonder how we got it right.
We have had migrants in Australia longer than other countries, and in greater numbers. We are not an experiment waiting to turn into Europe, we are an experiment that has already succeeded.
“Australia does not have to copy the rest of the world, we are out on our own in the Southern hemisphere, we should really learn from some of these other countries.”
So…we shouldn’t copy other countries, but we should look at what they’re doing? Don’t see the contradiction here?
Australia is different. It is beautifully different-our idea of multiculturalism is not as strict and repressive as France, nor as laissez faire as England. There is an understanding that we are a nation of migrants which encourages a welcoming atmosphere.
And we’re not alone. New Zealand is also a nation of migrants.
Read this article, or ignore it. But it shows how our immigration is very very different from Europe:
http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/mongrelnation/4829014
I’ve never been to Shepparton, I have a friend who works as a police officer in Melbourne though and he has some strong opinions on immigration and refugees as he has to go around arresting them. His words to me “should have never let any of em in”.
Now I’m not a racist person, I have a good mate that is Asian and I play soccer with a guy that is African, however I think we should all look at things purely objectively. Some of these refugees are committing serious crime.
“His words to me “should have never let any of em in”.”
Great, well that’s representative. One racist cop beats any overview.
As I mentioned before, I have had three families report to me experiences of assault, threats and violence because they are not white. These attacks were perpetrated by white people. If we are judging all migrants on the crimes of a few, should we in turn blame all white people due to the crimes of a few?
“Now I’m not a racist person, I have a good mate that is Asian and I play soccer with a guy that is African,”
Okay, let’s just stop here. If you start thinking “I can’t be racist because I have a non-white friend” just remind yourself….so did Hitler. I have met the most racist people who were sure they weren’t racist because they had one token non-white friend. I’ve known people who call for the murder of all Muslims, but they can’t be racist because they had sex with a Japanese woman once.
You are judging an entire community on the actions of the few who commit crimes, judging by their skin colour (Because let’s be honest-you didn’t check people’s visas, you have no idea if they’re all refugees or not). How is that not racist?
” Some of these refugees are committing serious crime.”
And they should be arrested, which they could have been if you ever reported it to police!
So should non-refugees who commit crimes. In fact, call me crazy here, but ALL people who commit serious crimes should be arrested.
So….why the particular focus on refugees? Why do we need to focus on their crimes any more than we do anyone else?
“I have a friend who works as a police officer in Melbourne though and he has some strong opinions on immigration and refugees as he has to go around arresting them” this is known as hearsay: noun 1.
unverified, unofficial information gained or acquired from another and not part of one’s direct knowledge:
If there are cases of unprovoked assault of refugees, then I agree with you, that is terrible and something should be done about that.
I look at countries like Japan and Korea who have not had to take in significant non Asian refugees relative to their population sizes.
I think that Japan and Korea are smart, the people recognize the importance of maintaining their national culture and ethnic majority Japanese, and they are doing well because of it.
Now look at a place like the Netherlands, Sweden, Germany, England, France. Nobody can say that Refugees have been a success in these countries. They have riots there all the time.
Then look at the United States over the past 200 years. They took in a lot of refuges and they seemed to do ok.
“If there are cases of unprovoked assault of refugees,”
There are. It’s not an if-it’s a case of “there are”
“I look at countries like Japan and Korea who have not had to take in significant non Asian refugees relative to their population sizes.”
They are countries with deeply entrenched racism, and a problem of a greatly ageing population with no solutions. They aren’t doing particularly well, compared to Australia (Major economic crises over the last few years). And they have had no strong history of migration.
“importance of maintaining their national culture and ethnic majority Japanese, and they are doing well because of it.”
How exactly is the national culture not being maintained?
“Now look at a place like the Netherlands, Sweden, Germany, England, France. Nobody can say that Refugees have been a success in these countries. ”
Multiculturalism has not worked in those countries, because it was a very one-sided multiculturalism “We’ll accept you being different-as long as you’re the same”
Australia is different. As this article shows:
http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/mongrelnation/4829014
And things you ignored:
1) – If we are judging all migrants on the crimes of a few, should we in turn blame all white people due to the crimes of a few?
2) – You are judging an entire community on the actions of the few who commit crimes, judging by their skin colour (Because let’s be honest-you didn’t check people’s visas, you have no idea if they’re all refugees or not). How is that not racist?
3) – ALL people who commit serious crimes should be arrested.
So….why the particular focus on refugees? Why do we need to focus on their crimes any more than we do anyone else?
Ok there are cases of unprovoked assaults on refugees and I agree, that is terrible and needs to be addressed.
So when it comes to crimes by refugees it’s “We need to question whether we have refugees” and blaming the entire community for their acts.
When it’s a serious case of threatening behaviour, physical and sexual assault, and robbery by white people, it’s “Well it needs to be addressed”?
Why the differentiation? Why do refugees all get targeted by you for the crimes of a few, but white people are each judged individually?
I’ll repeat these all again, shall I:
1) – If we are judging all migrants on the crimes of a few, should we in turn blame all white people due to the crimes of a few?
2) – You are judging an entire community on the actions of the few who commit crimes, judging by their skin colour (Because let’s be honest-you didn’t check people’s visas, you have no idea if they’re all refugees or not). How is that not racist?
3) – ALL people who commit serious crimes should be arrested.
So….why the particular focus on refugees? Why do we need to focus on their crimes any more than we do anyone else?
I disagree, I think that Japan and Korea are doing well, and I believe that part of that reason is because they maintain their ethnic integrity of their countries in that the founding race is maintaining it’s majority, and it works. They have low crime rates.
Sweden, low crime rates, add refugees and now some areas are not safe. Netherlands same deal. Immigration and refugee intakes need to stay in control to work. When they are in large numbers for the population, then it fails.
Yeah good crime rates there Dan from the Media or facts? “Sweden, low crime rates, add refugees and now some areas are not safe. Netherlands same deal”.
“I disagree, I think that Japan and Korea are doing well, ”
The Japanese government disagrees with you:
“Many towns have developed international centers where opportunities are developed and supported, creating contexts for interactions between local residents and foreigners such as a monthly English dinner hosted in the town where I have done fieldwork for several years.
Government officials have often explained to me that one of the goals of these initiatives is to create contexts in which Japanese people can interact, and thus become more comfortable with, foreigners. ”
http://thediplomat.com/2013/02/03/japans-demographic-disaster/
The UN also disagrees:
“A study by the UN Population Division released in 2000 found that Japan would need to raise its retirement age to 77 or admit 10 million immigrants annually between 2000 and 2050 to maintain its worker-to-retiree ratio.[8]”
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aging_of_Japan#cite_note-c-8
But I’m sure you can tell me exactly how they’re doing well not having any immigration, and with an ageing population likely to make up almost 40% of the population by 2055.
“the founding race is maintaining it’s majority, and it works”
The Japanese aren;t rthe founding race of Japan. The Ainu are. And again, if it works so well, why is the Japanese government trying to change things so to reduce the dependency on the elderly population.
“. They have low crime rates.”
Yes, Japan has a murder rate of only 0.4. It’s tiny. South Korea on the other hand has a murder rate of 2.6.
You know who has a lower murder rate than South Korea? Immigration loving New Zealand, Canada, the UK, and even Australia. (With rates ranging from 1-1.6). Hell, even Japan’s homicide rate is actually higher than other countries that allow diversity, such as Singapore (38% population are non citizens, murder rate of 0.3), and Moncao (Where the native group are actually a minority, murder rate of 0.0).
So…I don’t think Japan’s low crime rate has to do with their founding race maintaining its majority. And it doesn’t work, according to the Japanese government. But I’m sure you know better.
“Sweden, low crime rates, add refugees and now some areas are not safe. ”
Sweden’s homicide rate is lower than South Korea’s, and is actually the same as ours.
“Netherlands same deal.”
Netherlands homicide rate is also lower than South Korea’s, and only slightly higher than ours (1.1 to our 1.0).
” Immigration and refugee intakes need to stay in control to work.”
Well it’s a good thing that all immigration intake has always been in control. Always has been. So, what are you complaining about?
” When they are in large numbers for the population, then it fails.”
What number is acceptable to you? Please tell me. I’ve got to know-when do you start going “Right-we’ve got too many brown people”.
And more stuff you ignored:
1-How exactly is the national culture not being maintained?
And the article I demonstrated showing the difference between Australian and european immigration:
http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/mongrelnation/4829014
Yeah good crime stats from the USA lol. Might have something to do with the ethnic make up of the place.
So, now Dan, who is totally not racist, is stating that america has a problem with crime because it’s got a mix of people.
Naturally he’ll have evidence of this, and not just be saying, in a totally non racist way, that all non-whites do is cause trouble.
Dan, I hate to labour the point here, but how exactly are you not racist? You are blaming an entire community on the crimes of the few, and now you are stating that America’s crime rate, which you haven’t checked, is entirely due to having a mix of cultures.
How is that not racist?
I already said, I have a friend who is Asian and I play soccer with a guy who is African, I don’t see myself as overly racist, I’m just stating what I observe.
All right let me spell it out to you.
HAVING
NON-WHITE
FRIENDS
IS
NOT
AN
“I CAN’T BE RACIST”
GET-OUT-CARD
Especially since one of them is not a friend, just someone who you play soccer with (Your differentiation not mine). Hell, Hitler had asian friends-you telling me he;s not racist now?
“I don’t see myself as overly racist,”
Guess what? Neither would a racist.
” I’m just stating what I observe.”
Guess what? Racists do the exact same thing. They say what they observe, translated through their own skewed vision of the world where difference means trouble.
I’ll repeat myself, shall I:
Dan, I hate to labour the point here, but how exactly are you not racist? You are blaming an entire community on the crimes of the few, and now you are stating that America’s crime rate, which you haven’t checked, is entirely due to having a mix of cultures.
How is that not racist?
America has a mix of cultures agreed?
America’s crime rate is significantly higher than ours per head of population agreed?
Oh, so it’s a correlation, therefore it’s the truth. Her’es another correlation
Criminals don’t like reporting crimes to police. Agreed?
You repeatedly do not contact police about crimes. Agreed?
Or another one:
South Korea is not as diverse as Australia, the UK, New Zealand or Canada-agreed?
South Korea has significantly higher murder rates than Australia, the UK, New Zealand and Canada-agreed?
I’ll repeat this question again, shall I?:
Dan, I hate to labour the point here, but how exactly are you not racist? You are blaming an entire community on the crimes of the few, and now you are stating that America’s crime rate, which you haven’t checked, is entirely due to having a mix of cultures.
How is that not racist?
What do you want me to say? That I am a racist person and I hate all people of other races?
The truth is I don’t, I just don’t think it is sensible to take in heaps of refugees based on living in a suburb with refugees and my friend who is a police officer has to put up with the trouble they cause all the time.
Give me a hot girl from any race and I will give her a go, I’ll work with anyone from a different race, I’ll make friends with anyone from a different race.
What do you have to say about people who were born here who commit crimes?
What do you have to say about immigrants and refugees that don’t commit crimes?
Police get paid and trained to deal with difficult people, including racists and bigots.
Immigrants overall have lower crime rates than Australian-born people. Crime is largely a problem of males behaving badly, whatever ethnic or cultural group they are from.
And we don’t take much notice of people who come here and spin yarns about “my friend the police officer”. Police are not allowed to discuss operational matters with civilians, even members of their own family.
“What do you want me to say? That I am a racist person and I hate all people of other races?”
That’s your problem. You think it’s either “I am totally 100% not racist” or “I got out and hate everyone whose different”
Racism isn’t 100% one way or another. Understanding racism to start off with, is understanding that it is judging an entire race based on their race. Which is exactly what you’re doing here.
If anything, the subtle racism you’re demonstrating-not of direct aggression, but subtle demonisation and blame is far worse. When a guy screams racist messages at a stranger in public, everyone knows he’s wrong, and will support the stranger. The person whose hatred is subtle will prevent migrants from getting jobs, houses and opportunities because “They’ll ruin the area/cause crime, etc”
“I just don’t think it is sensible to take in heaps of refugees based on living in a suburb with refugees and my friend who is a police officer has to put up with the trouble they cause all the time.”
I repeat-crimes are committed by all types of people, in all types of community. Why the focus on refugees? You had a bad experience with some people you think are refugees (Again, you didn’t check their visa so you don’t have a clue!), and heard some second hand testimony from a few people that confirmed your biases. From this you think we need to punish all refugees for the crimes of a few (possible) refugees.
I got beaten up in the street once by two white guys. No hearsay, no second hand testimony-I know who they are. Am I allowed to blame all white males for crimes now and think we need to be careful about how many white people we let into the neighbourhood? No, of course not. Because I’m white, they’re white, and part of white privilege is seeing all white people as not responsible for the actions of their community, but not seeing all non-white people as responsible if any crimes are committed by anyone who vaguely is connected to their community.
“Give me a hot girl from any race and I will give her a go, I’ll work with anyone from a different race, I’ll make friends with anyone from a different race”
You are living in denial of how racist you are. Would you really be friends with someone of a different race? What if they wanted you to come over to their house? What if they lived in an area where a lot of people looked like them? Would you still maintain the friendship and share their life, or end the friendship because, as you said, going into areas where there is a large number of people of own culture intimidates you?
How exactly would you maintain a relationship with a woman if you honestly think that if too many people of her culture come in, crime will rise? How exactly would you work well with someone if you think that people from their culture are more likely to vandalise or commit crimes?
It’s easy to talk the talk. But what’s hard to do isn’t just to walk the walk, but start to question yourself and find out why you’re worried about doing the walk. And that’s what you’re refusing to do. It’s easy to say “I play football with a black guy”-you don’t actually have to check yourself to see if you have any racist beliefs, and feel you can do whatever you want. What’s hard is to actually question yourself, find out why you think the way you do, if it is justified, and then control your thoughts.
It’s hard, but here’s a question to start. It’s a question I asked many many times over and over again:
“You are blaming an entire community on the crimes of the few, and now you are stating that America’s crime rate, which you haven’t checked, is entirely due to having a mix of cultures.
How is that not racist?”
Look at this question. You made those comments-think about them. How exactly are they not racist comments? How exactly are they not blaming an entire group for problems without any evidence? How exactly are they not blaming an entire group for the actions of a few? How are they not grouping an entire group together based on skin colour?
To lighten the mood a bit, here are some quotes about using “I can’t be racist-my best friends are X” defense:
“It’s a nonsensical argument if you think about it, ‘I’m not racist, I’ve got black friends.’ You might as well argue ‘I’m not a murderer, some of my best friends are alive!’ And if you try arguing ‘I’m not a pedophile, some of my best friends are kids!’ you’ll probably make things worse for yourself.”
Sean Lock
“Bert McAnny: What? Now, Green, don’t get me wrong. Why, some of my best friends are Jews.
Anne Dettrey: And some of your other best friends are Methodists, but you never bother to say that.”
Gentlemen’s Agreement
You can see the tvtropes article for many many more examples. Or just google “I can’t be racist I have black friends” and see the many many people who aren’t convinced by that.
What I was saying is that I don’t go out of my way to be nasty to people of other races. Would it help if I told you that I had a short relationship with an Indian girl?
Nope, it wouldn’t! Here’s a website filled with very racist guys who want to have a relationship with Asian girls. Very racist against Asians-still want to date them:
http://creepywhiteguys.tumblr.com/
“What I was saying is that I don’t go out of my way to be nasty to people of other races.”
So you’re not overtly racist. You just write online that diversity leads to crime, and blame all refugees for the crimes of a few. That’s so much better.
Because you’re immune to sarcasm, I’ll explain it out to you. Suppose instead of telling you you’re an idiot who doesn’t belong in australia, I don’t tell you directly, but tell people online, tell complete strangers, and tell everyone else I know who isn’t you that you’re an idiot who doesn’t belong in Australia.
Would I be allowed to say at the end that I don’t have a problem with you?
I’ll say this again:
“Dan, I hate to labour the point here, but how exactly are you not racist? You are blaming an entire community on the crimes of the few, and now you are stating that America’s crime rate, which you haven’t checked, is entirely due to having a mix of cultures.
How is that not racist?”
I can’t believe this, I’m talking about refugees. I helped an Indian class mate with some study and one thing lead to another and we kept meeting up for study for a few weeks. She wasn’t one of the people vandalizing letterboxes and getting into fights. She is not even of the same race.
Having said that, I worked with an Indian guy who was an absolute bastard and was very racist towards me because I was a white Australian. He would go on about how we were convicts and how we stole the land from the Aborigines and how Australians are lazy and all sorts of stuff.
White people did steal the land from Aborigines.
Believe it. Again, Hitler had Asian friends. Are you trying to tell us that Hitler isn’t racist?
“I worked with an Indian guy who was an absolute bastard and was very racist towards me because I was a white Australian. He would go on about how we were convicts and how we stole the land from the Aborigines and how Australians are lazy and all sorts of stuff.”
So, to be clear, blaming an entire community due to the crimes of a few is wrong….if it’s directed at you.
Let’s go through beliefs step by step, shall we:
1- You blame all refugees for the crimes of a few.
2- Your Indian guy blame all white australians for the laziness of a few.
The second is totally racist and evil, right? But the first, according to yo, is a-okay?
Do you not see the contradiction here?
And to repeat myself:
I’ll explain it out to you. Suppose instead of telling you you’re an idiot who doesn’t belong in australia, I don’t tell you directly, but tell people online, tell complete strangers, and tell everyone else I know who isn’t you that you’re an idiot who doesn’t belong in Australia.
Would I be allowed to say at the end that I don’t have a problem with you?
And again:
“Dan, I hate to labour the point here, but how exactly are you not racist? You are blaming an entire community on the crimes of the few, and now you are stating that America’s crime rate, which you haven’t checked, is entirely due to having a mix of cultures.
How is that not racist?”
Another false claim from Dan so others can oh dear he is not racist, as he knows people from other countries? “I have a friend who is Asian and I play soccer with a guy who is African”.
But reality is just because they are Asian and African does not mean they are Asian and African, they would be Australians like Dan.
It’s interesting that Dan doesn’t consider the African soccer player a friend. I mean, he specifically on two occasions wants to point out that they’re not friends, they only play soccer together.
Speaks volumes, dunnit?
I don’t really feel comfortable talking about this.
Good. Not being comfortable is the start. You’ve been going through life saying “I dated and Indian girl, I’m friends with an Asian guy, I acknowledge a black guy at soccer-I’m totally free of all racism now and can start blaming all refugees for any change in crime rates”
That’s a very comfortable belief. Because being racist is not a nice way to see ourselves, but at the same time, it’s easier than waiting to judge people individually. So finding a way to judge people as a group without having to feel racist is so very very comforting.
If you’re beginning to feel uncomfortable, it’s a start.
I just don’t feel comfortable talking to you about people I don’t know very well like the African guy on my soccer team. I just wanted to say that If I was racist, I wouldn’t play on a team with a black guy, but I do play on the team and our team is going well, so I don’t want to talk any more about that.
Why are you spamming the blog again?
No, you can play on a team with a black person and still be racist. The racist part would be telling all your friends that the black guy in your team was a criminal because he was black. In other words, all black people are criminals.
Even if the guy was a criminal, the racist part is the generalisation and if you can’t spot one then you’re not too smart.
” I just wanted to say that If I was racist, I wouldn’t play on a team with a black guy, ”
Hitler had Asian friends and worked with them on a team. Are you saying Hitler isn’t possible racist-yes or no?
The KKK were fine with black people….as long as they knew their place. Are you saying the KKK isn’t racist-yes or no?
Racism isn’t determined by how many friends you have, what skin colour a girl you dated has, or anything like that. It is determined by what you do, think, feel and say.
You have said that the crime rate in America is caused by its diversity (Ignoring the fact that other diverse countries have a lower crime rate than other monocultural countries). How exactly is that not a racist statement-blaming crime on an entire group you know nothing about?
You have also expressed concern about refugees because you’ve experienced crime from some people you think may be refugees. How is this not racist-to judge all refugees as a risk in terms of crime because of a bad experience with a few?
But of course ColinH the “cute” claims from the racists sourced from the media such as a Today Tonight really present a strong case?
Pauline ( we will be swamped) Hanson was the most effective politician of her time. She unplugged the bottle and out came the real Aussie spirit, and an industry that is diverting funds which should be spent on Health and Education, but instead goes overseas to Serco. One of the bigger corporations in the world. Among its operations are public and private transport and traffic control, aviation, military and nuclear weapons contracts, detention centres and prisons and schools.
The Hanson /Howard /Abbott phenomenon in Australia is not unique, and highlights the vulnerability of the fragile Australian multicultural society. Who will be targeted next?
We have a responsibility to assist those persons and communities who are now undergoing traumas and who arrive dispossessed and homeless, powerless and vulnerable. They deserve our help and support, not contempt or hostility.
There is a shadow smuggler by air route that could not operate unless certain people look the other way and others who provide “Genuine Visa’s” supply overseas agent and folks simply fly in the front door and disappear.
But this noise keeps your attention on this pitiful mess.
We wonder also whom the haters will turn on next if Rudd’s plan somehow succeeds.
You can’t delete my posts “mindmadeup”. Like I said from the 26th of July this website will be under observation from my lawyer. She tells me we may even be able to shut this website down. You made my email and IPS address public. If you were smart you would know that you have not one legal leg to stand on. Each member, including yourself will be monitored and watched. I may have made some comments that you did not like but I read comments from you that I did not like. You have no legal right to make my private information public so I will not comment on that further except to say my lawyer has instructed me to wait until she has conferred with the Australian lawyers society WA,.upon where you will be hearing from her and myself shortly..
Rocco you should get together with your lawyer and work out what is the company name you can think up?
As you called it Australian lawyers society WA but she called it Perth Law Society.
Now take me to court for telling the truth, which is based on yours and your so called Lawyer own comments.
Rocco,
In calling it Australian lawyers society WA are you referring to The Law Society of Western Australia?
Because if you are, they are not a business or a company where you can legal help as such, they are professional association for Western Australian barristers and solicitors.
cunt
As from the 26th of July this website will be monitored by my lawyer. Mindmadeup made my email and IP address known to the public. This is gross misconduct and anyone using this sight will be monitored and checked. Just a warning.to those of you who think they are above the law like mindmadeup.
Dear Sir or Madam my name is Karen Walker, lawyer for Rocco Andretti. On July the 23rd my client posted a comment on your website regarding Muslims. What my client said may have offended you, but Australia is a country where free speech is allowed. You took no consideration and deliberately put my clients well-being in danger. I viewed older posts and comments from other members, and discovered that in no way were my clients comments as offensive as some of the ones I came across, and yet you did not make their information public. In no way do I support my clients views, however I do support the laws in place that protect a member of the public’s right to have their information kept private. Your administrator posted my clients email address and IP number, and according to your site no email would be made public, and yet you did this. This is illegal. My client has received death threats and hate mail. I will make it clear to you. Take down my clients email and IP address and I will not take this matter further. Your member “mindmadeup” was responsible for this illegal act. You have until Monday to comply otherwise this matter will be taken to the Federal police and your website will be subpoenaed. I have instructed my client to not visit your site again. All contact will be made through me at this email address.
Thank you
K. Walker LLB MACS
Hello kit. I was wondering, where in australian law is internet anonymity protecteed? Let me know the act.
Pretending to be a lawyer is an offence anyway. Especially when you use a false name.
CRIMINAL CODE ACT COMPILATION ACT 1913
Chapter LIII — Personation
510. Personation in general
Any person who, with intent to defraud any person, falsely represents himself to be some other person living or dead, is guilty of an offence which unless otherwise stated, is a crime; and he is liable to imprisonment for 3 years.
513. Uttering qualification etc. of another
Any person who utters any document which has been issued by lawful authority to another person, and whereby that other person is certified to be a person possessed of any qualification recognised by law for any purpose, or to be the holder of any office, or to be entitled to exercise any profession, trade, or business, or to be entitled to any right or privilege, or to enjoy any rank or status, and falsely represents himself to be the person named in the document, is guilty of an offence of the same kind, and is liable to the same punishment as if he had forged the document.
While we’re at it, why does the perth law society not have a website?
Because there is no such organisation. Just like the only person who is “Rocco Andratti” is a character in a bodice-ripper.
A Law Society is a Professional association for Western Australian barristers and solicitors.
So The WA Law Society would interested to hear someone is using their part of their name and claiming it is a private company.
http://www.lawsocietywa.asn.au/
“In no way do I support my clients views, however I do support the laws in place that protect a member of the public’s right to have their information kept private”
I can see what happens in court, apart from their own client comments being used as evidence.
“I represented Rocco, but I don’t agree with they claim that is in public and against the law”
Next case.
I know LLB is The Bachelor of Laws, but what is MACS?
As one of the things I founds for MACS was for a Macintosh, no Bachelor courses.
K Walker should check the law yes Australia is a country where free speech is allowed, but not allowed where the free speech is against the law and causes offence to others.
Don’t trouble yourself Keith, they got their “legal knowledge” by getting stoned and watching old Law and Order episodes.
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It is sad that Australia is exposed to negative opinions of asylum seekers. The people of Australia have no time or education to develop there own beliefs on the situation. These ‘boat people’ are legal asylum seekers. They are coming from countries where they fear for their lives or are persecuted. This is not limited to war. Many people who leave there home country do not make their way to Australia immediately. Many asylum seekers can take 8 years, from the time they leave their country to the time they arrive in Australia. They are NOT queue jumpers. Many of these people do NOT have the money or papers to enter Australia. Many of these people are poor and/or are escaping hardships. What gives us the right to then put them into ‘jail like’ detention for days, weeks or even months?! Obviously there needs to be a a better and more successful way to process these people instead of sending them back or leaving them in detention centres (Obviously not all ‘boat people’ are Asylum Seekers, but we need some way to process this instead of blatantly refusing them all). These people are HUMAN. Why do we prevent them from having a better life?
What is with people necroing posts on this site?
1. This one may have been found by a web surfer – it seems to have gone viral. All good.
2.Some people are bored or they are hoping that responding to old posts will slip past the admin.
Not a chance! 😀
I feel very lucky I was born in Australia and not some war torn one. Since there are people who are born into those kinds of countries, it doesn’t mean it is ok for them to stay there. They have to have some place to go!
There is something wrong in this article, please update it because it looks very weird!!
On the 3rd picture, you’ve stated that there is 53.900 overstayers and also that there is 5600 boat people. But, on the 4rth picture you’ve done a calculation to show how much was spend in total for those 2 categories(overstayers and boat people),a calculation done with a wrong value for the total number of Overstayers…
—-> you’ve calculated 10.000 x 12.000$ instead of 53.900 x 12.000$, which make 646.800.000$
I’m not good enough in political subject to see if it was done on purpose by you for any reasons, but it’s kind of unique to see such a mistake 🙂 10.000 and 53.900 are very different numbers 😉
We did not draw the graphics. They are from another source.
no, the graphic is correct, you’ve just misread it.
There are 53,900 overstayers… but only 10,000 of those are processed (the rest are allowed to carry on in Australia unhindered…).
Therefore the corrrect figure for spending on processing is 10,000 x 12,000
Then, apoligies to you mindmadeup 😉
So if you’ve found let’s say a picture showing a dead palestinian chidren in the arms of her mother, but it happened that in reality this picture is a total fake, you will accuse the source instead of having double checked the source? (exemple: http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2012/02/03/is-this-photo-of-an-israeli-soldier-pointing-an-ak-47-at-a-palestinian-girl-real-or-fauxtography/).
Your Avatar is a brain with working synapses, and you don’t check the values used in your source, and frankly, it was not hard to see, and I can tell you that my brain is not full of flashing lights synapses like yours 🙂
Seing that the source is from the Australian governement itself, shows one more time that Australia is fucking racist(beside Mad Max) 🙂
Peut-etre
When I say racist, I talk about the country’ politic, about how immigration is dealed with in general(with ratios and quotas made on what Australia needs the most at a given moment) Chosen immigration is not good(France did that in the 60’s, and now there is a lot economical and social problems) it makes disparities, create ghettos, and fuel the fire of white racism. Treating people as assets, like France did, shows off a heartless(soul-less) politic, I hope for Australia that they will not get what got France in result of bad spirited people political choices….
Why can’t they just be put on a plane and turned around. A lot of them aren’t interested in our way of life and its just a free ride.
Lee and what about those who overstay their visa, should they be put on a plane or high in your place?
Hide not high.
When comparing Australia with other countries it should be considered that we have a much smaller population than most of those mentioned in your graph. .. which means our economy has a far more limited capacity to absorb the impact of an influx of unskilled workers.
Your statistics show that already immigration accounts for the majority of Australia’s population growth. There is a factual necessity that the number of migrants be capped somewhere. Otherwise there would be serious ramifications socially and economically. We have already seen that the kinder the government, the more people will attempt to seek asylum. We should have a sensible plan for the future when considering asylum seeker policy. The unfortunate fact of life is that we cannot take on all who desire a better life, and we must plan wisely in order to provide a decent life to those whom we can take in.
And yes, plenty of other countries take in proportionally more refugees than we do… but there is enormous poverty and social unrest that comes with that.If you want to relax the border policies, then be realistic about what we can provide. Every country in the world (whether rich or poor) with a large influx of refugees has slums or areas of immigrant enclaves with high crime rates, high unemployment and crowded housing. Australia would be no different.
Come one marym tell us which of the following is the truth?
You visiting every single country in the world rich or poor to see if they have a large influx of refugees with slums or areas of immigrant enclaves with high crime rates, high unemployment and crowded housing?
Or like the other racists you are talking crap?
To maryn> Why are you assuming that every person that seeks asylum is “unskilled” ?!? How racist is that? Man(or Miss), there are people very qualified(more than you and me) in way poorer countries than yours and mine, or from countries where there is a war going on. I don’t say that every asylum seeker is an engineer, but some are, as some are “just” human and can easily learn on the spot or simply go to school. What would be Australia without immigration? You certainely would not have been there if there won’t had any, 200 years ago! Being australian and being cold(like against) toward immigration is sad for such a young country, almost selfish, and completely illogical 🙂 Just a reminder for people who still got a heart, and want to do something good, something big to go on march(manifest, create facebook pages,….) for: The world famous Victoria Open Market is build on an aboriginal cemetary! Please, let the world know!….from wikipedia:”… there still remain approximately 9,000 people buried under the sheds and car park of the Queen Victoria Market. Every time work is carried out at the market, bones are disturbed.” HOW BIG IS THAT!!!!
…the number of people arriving by boat is now at a rate over 40,000 per year, meaning a huge strain on society and setting ourselves up to create a social underclass for future generations. Also, has anybody asked how many refugees countries like Japan accept? Why does Australia beat itself up so much when we are a reasonable country trying to do our fair share?
I am confused you seen to be against refugees with numbers you made up, even those the real numbers are up top “…the number of people arriving by boat is now at a rate over 40,000 per year, meaning a huge strain on society and setting ourselves up to create a social underclass for future generations” and for Australia having refugees “when we are a reasonable country trying to do our fair share?”.
Which one is it?
What is wrong with some?
They make up numbers even those the real numbers are in front of them?
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Was Australia swamped by seekers? Would rather see this in proportion to our population size instead of raw numbers. And while were manipulating the numbers to show what we want, how about the ratio of seekers to land area?
Why do we need by population size? Are we saying “We have a small population, therefore we need to take fewer people, while those countries with a huge population, who are overcrowded already need to take me”?
But anyway, rant over-here are the population figures for 2012-
Click to access australia-vs-rest-world-refugees-asylum-seekers___.pdf
We come 16th out of 44 industrial countries for asylum seeker claims, and 29th for refugee intake.
On the space ship earth, there are no passengers, only crew!
Nice graphic, but it’s based on 3 year old data. People are looking at it as representing 2013 and naturally things have changed since 2010.
They haven’t changed that much. proportional and comparative data is around the same.
The important point to grasp is that relative to what is occurring elsewhere (such as asylum seekers streaming daily into Turkey from Syria or the dire situation in Pakistan) Australia has very few problems – except for the over-population of whining intolerant xenophobes who hate brown people and who think millions of refugees are paddling up the Nepean River.
Well, if the stats in this article are correct, then boat people would be silly to try and land on Australia. There seems other countries that it would be better to try and land on. The boat people among my friends, have told me that they picked ther country of arrival, by which was the easiest to get into. They chose a country that wouldn’t give them refugee status, but would put them into camps which would allow them to apply to other countries to get refugee status. (This was over 20 years ago though, so the process may be different now).
The general rule for asylum seekers in the current day is those who can arrive in planes do arrive in planes. Those who can get to safety on land, do get to safety on land, and those who cannot get to safety except by boat do get on a boat.
We have two obligations here.
1. to accept those GENUINELY seeking asylum.
2. To our general population .
Our birth rate is 1.87, with net migration it is 4.3. The replacement rate is 2.1. Growing at this pace is not good for the development of our cities. I think we do need to slow down our population growth. Perhaps we should cut back immigration in other area’s rather than focusing on boats.
Another thing, true asylum seekers seek asylum regardless of the induction policy of the country they go to, so long as it is safer than the country they are fleeing. Looking at historic statistics, I see the bulk of arrivals being dictated by the speed of processing and nature of policy, I think this is dishonest to the true nature of an asylum seeker, and in this respect, I’m not against stringent polices, so long as those that do arrive here are processed fairly and within a reasonable time frame.
“Looking at historic statistics, I see the bulk of arrivals being dictated by the speed of processing and nature of policy,”
How so?
The number of asylum seeker arrivals to Australia has always been in line with global statistics and trends regardless of our domestic policy, and has always aligned with expected fluctuations due to known ‘push factors’..
http://parliamentflagpost.blogspot.com.au/2011/04/asylum-trends-europe-and-australia.html
http://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/Parliamentary_Departments/Parliamentary_Library/pubs/BN/2012-2013/AsylumFacts#_Toc348096475
“The UNHCR Regional Representative for Australia, New Zealand and the Pacific, Richard Towle, has pointed out in the past that further destabilisation of countries such as Afghanistan, Iraq and Sri Lanka, would inevitably lead to more people seeking asylum in our region regardless of national border protection policies or changes to migration legislation.[13] More recently, Towle has argued that this continues to be the case:
… the higher number of people taking dangerous and exploitative sea journeys is a symptom of the grave human insecurity that refugees face at home and the risks they are compelled to take to find safety for their families. It is no coincidence that most boat people come from Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran and Sri Lanka – places that are suffering, or have recently emerged, from long periods of serious human insecurity.[14]”
http://www.aph.gov.au/about_parliament/parliamentary_departments/parliamentary_library/pubs/bn/2012-2013/boatarrivals
http://www.refugeecouncil.org.au/f/myth-long.php
etc etc etc…
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Reblogged this on brianiselin and commented:
Many very useful insights in this largely infographic look at the ‘asylum-seeker problem’.