#auspol #ausmedia @juliagillard
Are you ready, dear readers? This is what the Tony Abbott/Rupert Murdoch/Alan Jones led politics of today have created, justified and fostered in the Australian public. This is what the scum of society fap over in the absence of real love and joy. This is a slap in the face to a politician who, love her or hate her managed to implement incredible progressive change that serves all of humanity while clinging to power within a hung parliament.
Happy birthday Julia Gillard. Despite the emotive power of this post, hopefully you will be warmed knowing that those that despise you are no more than the bottom feeders of a society which is built on fear. Those with half a brain appreciate much of what you have done and stood for.
you said it... 
A theory and a question. Theory: they all have the same parents. Question: if their parents divorced would they (the parents) still be brother and sister?
David, yes she will still be kin to you.
Wow! The old Takes One To Know One repost, Eddie. Positively Swiftian in its subtlety and cutting wit. I’m all a-trembling.
Seems to be the same old deplorable suspects with the “females” being even worse than the males. To think these disgusting specimens walk amongst us.
Wonder if the employers, of those who actually have jobs, are aware of their employee’s nasty & despicable attitudes.
I would be very surprised if some of those employers didn’t get some emails about their employees.
Let their employers know… well, those that have jobs.
Penny Wong should of been first. Julia Gillard was put in there, to do some dirty U.N bidding. Borrowed from the IMF to give to the U.N. Neither Penny nor Kevin could be so malicious to the Australian public.
Conspiranazi
JuLIAR, former prime mU.N.ister, funneling cash into the coffers of the One World Government cabal in order to advance Agenda 21. In other news, the sky is green and Eddie Shruxens is a well-learned man of reason.
nothing compared to the close the aboriginal tent embassy down site, i did not vote for julia , but this behavior made me ashamed to live a country with so many gutless cowards in it
just can’t believe the anger and hate out there people……..what makes people hate like this…. something is very wrong with our society in raising children who actually thing this way…. takes away a lot of faith in people…
At least these people are not pinkies complaining about brown people.
You brown people are the ones that pretend to be Aboriginals. I haven’t seen a wog try and be an Abo, but I wouldn’t put it past them. I’ve seen plenty of Indonesians and Indians just rock up and claim Abo.
Naturally you’ll have evidence of Indonesians and Indians claiming to be Aboriginal?
No-it’s a BS from a BS artist? Then I look forward to seeing you vanishing into the ether.
Jessica Mauboy has an Indonesian father and a white mum who claims to have some Abo. The mum is no half cast, not even a quarter so her portion is even smaller she is Majority Indonesian, next biggest majority white then possibly, a small percentage aboriginal. Even if her mum was a quarter cast, which she isn’t it would make Jessica at most 1/8. but yet claims aboriginal because this helps tremendously in her support and career. It’s dishonest. She is dark and has dishonestly claimed Abo. Mean while the full blooded Abo misses out.
Nova Perris. – Indian. roll out the red carpet. She’s Indian.
There is heaps of examples, taking advantage of the generous support that Abos get in this country. They walk in and take advantage of the opportunities and support by being dishonest. Sure, they are not white, but they are not Abo.
Troll
So it’s not people who are Indian or Indonesian claiming to be Aboriginal. It’s people who have Aboriginal ancestry claiming to be Aboriginal.
Which you have a problem with, because whether or not someone can consider themselves to be an Aboriginal is entirely decided by you, apparently.
I will try very hard not to think about them at all. Embarrassing for their friends and employers as they have them listed on their profiles. You really wouldn’t want to be associated with them at all.
This makes me feel ill – I wonder if Sheehan will cover this page too?
Are the idiots too stupid to realise that threats they written could see The Federal Police knocking down their door? And I well be there with popcorn and drinks.
But then again if the idiots don’t like Julia, then give back what Julia and Labor offered.
Chris Wheeler worked for The Australian Government around the same time Labor was in government.
So if he hatred Julia that much, why didn’t he resign from his job?
So much hate out there, not good.
The thing that troubles me most is that I was raised not to judge by appearances but taking one look at this lot I can see at a glance that they’re the type who would make this kind of comment. If you think this is acceptable discourse, try and find its equivalent on the other side of politics. You’ll find all kinds of disparaging comments aimed at conservative leaders, but nothing inciting violence.
I was surprised to see an otherwise bogan having gone through to do postgraduate study. He might have been the exception but how do you get through an intense learning environment and still find this acceptable behaviour?
Yeah well that’s exactly right, people didn’t give her a chance. The damage had already been done with all the in fighting.
3 yrs = No chances, c’mon, any longer and small business would be extinct.
Because he’s a liar?
You don’t call “Shoot Tony Abbott” pages inciting violence??
No because the people who are most likely to shoot a politician are the sorts of people we feature here.
We don’t expose pages, we expose people who say stupid things.
Julia takes the cake when it comes to saying stupid things.
I did not vote for you Julia and am just as guilty, but these comments are not from normal people.
I voted for a few different ones the wikileaks one, the sex party and the livestock one. I just put a cross in each of the boxes then people are saying it was meant to be a number.
During the election campaign I discovered similar ignorance from people who I hadn’t thought would behave so bigoted. I am blaming the media and LNP for reducing our political discourse to this.
A large part of why comments about Gillard are so much more vile is the entrenched culture of misogyny in this country. Gillard’s biggest offence was being a woman. A lot of people don’t agree, but consider the comments you’ve heard about every figure in parliament over the last few years. Abbott gets “Mad Monk” or other derogatory comments about his beliefs. Rudd often gets branded as a control freak, or comments are made about how much his cabinet despised him. But Gillard? How many of the usual comments did you hear about her that weren’t based on appearance, or at least include reference to it? When was the last time you heard the same said of a male politician?
I wish there was something I could inject into this post to make it a bit more light-hearted, but the truth of the matter is that this country had a big problem with a female in the top job. And, not surprisingly, still does. I doubt you’d find the same level of comments – advocating rape and murder – on the pages for other leading pollies.
I totally agree – you have hit the nail on the head. No male has ever or will ever receive the vile remarkds Julia Gillard has – because she is female. Sad reflection on some Aussie males (and women). Shameful behaviour….and we are trying to teach kids not to bully!!!!
Todescribbe these comemnts as disgusting is an understatement as is using the words stupid and self-destructive. These comments, these people, so much hatred and savageness for so little real reason, its just, well sad. Awfully sad and also seems such a waste of their time, life and energy that could’ve been put into so many more productive things had they so chosen.
Love the montage of profile photos, print it out and you have your own bogan dartboard!
Thanks for the promotion from a mere “troll” to “bogan” leftards. sucks to be you!
Don’t assume anyone here cares what you think.
Its fantastic to be a lefty! I’m a proud lefty – would not allow myself to stay on this planet if I had to behave like a Liberal. Sucks to be a Liberal as you have to be so mean and narrow minded. I also worry because they breed. 😉
David White – another Ipswich mega-scumbag. Why does that whole town breed inbreds that would look too scummy to be in an episode of Breaking Bad? They should just nuke it and leave it at that. [CONTENT REMOVED AND PASSED ONTO POLICE]
I’m pretty sure that to be a troll you have to at least be clever with your provocation. You’re just some gormless half-wit spewing vitriol onto your keyboard.
Is this trial by a faceless person also behind a key board? Is public humiliation now acceptable? I know the facebook pages about Tony Abbott and Kevin Rudd had as many hatred filled comments listed on them, From reading the article trying to humiliate people who had less than nice things to say about someone, the writer of the so called post is obviously under the belief that Australians are easily led by the media. Do you think none of us have a brain and can make up our own minds? Or do we live in a military state and must do as told by the Prime Minister or bed sent to bed with no dinner…We are all entitled to our own opinion and not all of us will agree over that opinion.
Who said you couldn’t have your own opinion? We are simply expressing our opinion of your opinion? Got a problem with that, fuck face?
No people are not entitled to write grossly violent posts of a sexual nature about anyone. The FB pages about Tony Abbott and Kevin Rudd do not have that vile element to them. If you post nasty vile stuff you risk people taking a snapshot of it and posting it for others to see. It is a public page. It is a lesson to those people that what vileness you post may come back to bite you and once its on facebook – even if you delete it someone may have a copy of it and Facebook themselves certainly do!!
Keep your opinions to yourselves. We are not interested.
Opinions need to be backed by facts otherwise they are the pointless rantings of the half-educated and impaired mistakes of Nature.
Like this lot…
I think you’ve just done the same as you accuse these people of doing! You’ve gone a step further by putting their details up so anyone can see them. Yeah, yeah, it’s the internet, so nothing’s private any more, but you are still engendering a hate and smear campaign against people who had a legitimate opinion on Gillard, regardless how they expressed it!
Not a step further at all. We are expressing our freedom of speech in opposing what has been written about a female politician. Cool?
Care factor zero.
We gave them the freedom of speech they are always demanding (snigger).
Nothing ever could be as hateful as the posts on that page. I had a look at them and not all the really bad ones had been captured and shown here. But what you can see now if the worst ones have actually disappeared, and so they should have. Name and shame is fine. If you don’t want all to see your post – simple – don’t post it. The page they posted on is public, and their comments were so absolutely filthy and violent…they deserve everything that comes at them. Some even had their employers names visible on their pages – how embarrassing to be associated with these people. So they hated Julia Gillard – well get over it – she has gone. And grow up – how on earth can we teach kids that bullying is not ok when their elders practice it so much!!
“Redhead bitch who has the audacity to be Prime Ministering while female” isn’t what I’d call a legitimate opinion.
@Tooly : “legitimate opinion ” like she should be brutally bashed or assassinated even now when she’s no longer holding public office? Do you really call that legitimate or do you think maybe its more accurately described as hate speech and incitement to committ serious criminal offences?
No doubt many of the commenters exposed here will claim they’re only joking (“funny” that,there’s nothing “funny” about what they’ve said though really) yet it if anything does happen or someone does do something serious based on such comments, well, it wouldn’t be surprising and would be very awful for all involved.
You’ve fallen for that old adage of two wrongs making a right! No way, no how should people or forums take the law into their own hands. If you think their comments are malicious or illegal, call in the authorities on them!
I see no difference between this behavior here and their behavior. I’ve read heaps of ‘Abbott’ hate sites and have discovered that regardless of where your support lies, the ‘other’ ones are leaving disgraceful comments.
Whatevs.
How is this carrying the law into our own hands? These people have made terrible comments in a public way, and now those comments have been publicised further. How is this breaking or imposing any law?
If someone shouted in the middle of the street “I want to smack Gillardi n the face with a brick” would they have the right to privacy? Would you be condemning everyone who tells their friends about this outburst?
Well, shouting something stupid in public online is just like shouting it in the middle of the street. If you don’t want people to talk about the stupid hateful things you are saying, don’t say stupid hateful things. Seems pretty simple, doesn’t it?
Who gives a shit what you think, Tooly?
We aren’t trying to ‘right a wrong’. We are simply immortalising and preserving these fuckwits’ fuckwittery for all of eternity.
90% of the people in the profiles you listed had decent jobs. One guy even owns a business.
What point are you trying to prove?
The point we are proving is that these people said some fucked up things in a public forum. We proved that point quite successfully.
What point are you trying to prove – that because someone has a job they are decent people? – well they just proved that theory wrong. It doesn’t matter if you have a decent job or not you can obviously still be a hatefilled bogan.
The guy with the ginger beard and shaved head two photos along looks familiar I will check, but I think he has featured in one of the posts previously.
I like your comment “Those with half a brain appreciate much of what you have done and stood for.” AND those of us with a full brain knows what an incompetent backstabbing lying bitch she is.
Sorry, it is hard to hear what you’re saying over the sound of your tears.
no more foreign.. actually jessica mauboy is part aboriginal.. and its not 1/8th you fuck…
If Jessica Mauboy identifies as aboriginal – then she is.” No more foreign” – you have serious race issues. Why would this bother you anyway. Go get a life instead of worrying about what % a person is of a race.
Ok I will explain it then. Her dad is a full Indonesian, not aboriginal, a full Indonesian. That’s half of her ancestry. Her mother is fair skinned. You can not be a full aboriginal and have fair skin. Impossible. You can’t even be a half caste and have fair skin. It just never happens. Her mother looks no more than a quarter aboriginal and that is being very generous. So what does that make Jessica? She would be no more than 1/8th Abo.
Tell me this is not correct. Tell me she is half Abo, but remember that to be half Abo her mum must be a full blooded aboriginal. Clearly her mum is mostly white. So there goes her being half Abo.
She is half Indo.
my very first experiment was a lexical decision task experiment, which investigated the effects of mood manipulation on the rection times of students to unidimensional congruence and multidimentional emotional congruence in perception of word recognition. Now that is directly from my experimental report, but it is my own words so I don’t have to give you APA format, it’s my 1st year experiment not a journel article.
Anyways the task basically involved happy and negative word manipulation on word recognition. There was a series of happy words and a series of negative words. A series of neutral words. There was a number of statistical analysis applied to the results also, and the basic finding was that the happy and positive emotive words were in fact recognised and responded to more quickly. There were other interesting letter string experiments. Psychometric testing and getting out the test kits on loan was in seccond year. The tutor that I speak about was in second year. Lovely lady, and not afraid to teach us the truth when it comes to intelligence.
I ask you this question JM, do you think all races have the same brain structure?
We all have the same basic anatomy and neuro endocrine system but in terms of relative sizes of brain structures are we all exactly the same?
I know that we are not, and I don’t think that’s a racist comment at all, it explains why we have differing but overlapping abilities. Just look at the skulls of different races, the typical Asian skull is fairly broad but short in length when compared to a Caucasians skull the Caucasians skull is usually longer but often not as broad. Of course there is over lap in the populations, but that is the trend and that is why there is a trend for slightly different behaviours and thinking styles. Both races, smart people, they just differ slightly in physiology, and personally I find this difference fascinating. Often Asians and Europeans are used in research because they are both quite intelligent races who are not disadvantaged in the modern world and therefore the research is not considered racist. But if you were to compare a white and a black, it’s racism lol.
my very first experiment was a lexical decision task experiment, which investigated the effects of mood manipulation on the rection times of students to unidimensional congruence and multidimentional emotional congruence in perception of word recognition. Now that is directly from my experimental report, but it is my own words so I don’t have to give you APA format, it’s my 1st year experiment not a journel article.
1. Your poor spelling gives you away
2. You would not be conducting this type of experiment in Psych 1. You may well have been an experimental subject for a post-grad student or lecturer if in fact you did attempt uni. In other words, a two-legged lab rat.
I ask you this question JM, do you think all races have the same brain structure?
There is only one race. That is the human race. There are superficial variations within (physical appearance) which do not impact on population statistics for cognitive tasks. There are superficial variations within your own family unless your family consists only of you and an identical twin. There are even small variations between identical twins.
the typical Asian skull is fairly broad but short in length when compared to a Caucasians skull the Caucasians skull is usually longer but often not as broad.
Bullshit. Skull shape is affected by heredity and pre-natal factors such as nutrition. Nothing to do with brain function or “race”.
Some societies artificially changed the shape of infant skulls. This had no effect on brain size or function.
there is a trend for slightly different behaviours and thinking styles.
That’s culture not anatomy. Culture is acquired and learned behaviour.
But if you were to compare a white and a black, it’s racism lol.
When you and people like you do it IS racism.
” Now that is directly from my experimental report, but it is my own words so I don’t have to give you APA format, it’s my 1st year experiment not a journel article.”
So you never did a thesis? Just a first year psych experiment?
So we’re meant to believe that you know more about psychology than arts students who do actual theses, because you did a first year experiment?
“There was a number of statistical analysis applied to the results also,”
Wow, you did a number of statistical analyses? Which ones?
“The tutor that I speak about was in second year. ”
They were a lecturer the first time you mentioned them-now they’re a tutor?
“Lovely lady, and not afraid to teach us the truth when it comes to intelligence. ”
And isn’t it strange that the University doesn’t have a name then.
“I ask you this question JM, do you think all races have the same brain structure?”
Why should I answer this question when you have repeatedly refused to back up any of your claims or answer any of my questions? Please tell me, why should I?
“Just look at the skulls of different races,”
The existence of which is debateable at best.
“Of course there is over lap in the populations, but that is the trend and that is why there is a trend for slightly different behaviours and thinking styles. ”
That’s where your leaping to conclusions without any evidence. I mean, Morton’s study didn’t judge on size, he judged on attractiveness of skulls.
I’ll let you try and describe the difference in thinking styles and behaviours between Asians and Caucasians people, and continue digging that hole for yourself, but in the meantime….yes, brain size does have a relationship with IQ, but they only account to between 9-16% of all variances in IQ (Hoppe & Stojanovic, 2008). This suggests that multiple other factors come into play in intelligence-not just brain size.
Which would tend to put your “Eugenics-everything comes down to genes-white people are superior rant” to a bit of an embarassment.
Cry all you like losers but our country is much better off without Labor Losers in government. Try working for a living that might give you something else to cry about
Evidence or shut the fuck up.
Did you see your esteemed leader running away from the media over the past week?
I am jealous because I am a nobody and a misogynist
You fools must be a pack of doo gooders. After all you feel its perfectly acceptable to burn the countrys money and bring in the lowest scum of all `boatpeople’ and have the nerve to say other workers should pay for their asses.
Suck it up labour loses this is what happens when you fark people over. They want to fark you back. She deserves every bit of it.
Bring in the boat people and deport the bogots.
Thanks for confirming all we thought of people like you.
You can’t even spell ‘do’.
PS – you look like a fucking thumb.
I know that making fun of your opponent’s appearance is hilariously childish, but… nice necklace, bro.
I made the mistake of going through that facebook page…….
I like that they’re having a sook about their privacy being invaded, must be all that hacking to get to publicly listed content associated with your own public personal information…
@no more foreign – regards your comment that Nova Peris is Indian – I grew up in Darwin and knew several members of the Peris family, they were definitely indigenous Australians.
I disagree. I know people living in Darwin and they are of a different opinion. Darwin has a significant Indian population which do not suffer any disadvantage compared to the indigenous. Many Indians have mixed with whites and Aboriginals creating some mixed race people. She is one of those mixed race peoples. I believe that she has significant Indian ancestry which leads to people overestimating her Aboriginal ancestry. This is often the case, if someone is not white and has part aboriginal, even a small part, people will just make the assumption that they are aboriginal based on their appearance not being that of a typical white Australian. The person might hypothetically be half Indian quarter white and quarter Aboriginal and they pass as being a full blooded Aboriginal with all the benefits. The person is mixed race and has largest portion Indian and equal portions Caucasian and Aboriginal. I don’t see how that is representing Aboriginals.
All you need is a certificate from an elder to say you are a full blooded aboriginal. It’s about what you feel apparently. So I a fair skinned man could just say I feel aboriginal and get approval by an elder and Hey I’m aboriginal mate!
For me it probably wouldn’t work very well, but I reckon a full Indian or Indonesian could pull it off no worries.
Why is race and the proportion of Indian / Indigenous whatever in someone’s family histroy so important to you “no more foreign” – do you think it really matters?
Do you seriously think there’s a whole group of people trying to pretend they are something they’re not as opposed to maybe discovering and recognising a part of their personal ancestry and identity? Maybe you should look at the Andrew Bolt legal case over his similar seeming line and consider how well that, er, did NOT work out for him.
Wow, you’re one of those old fashioned racists aren’t you? Big fan of eugenics, I take it? I bet you call yourself a “race realist” too.
I think I’ve found a little flaw in your plans:
“So I a fair skinned man could just say I feel aboriginal and get approval by an elder and Hey I’m aboriginal mate!”
So Aboriginal elders are just handing out approval all willy nilly now are they?
I find it interesting the number of white guys who have decided, with no one ever asking them, to define what is an Aborigine….using Maths, which usually isn’t their strong point.
But if we’re going to say that ethnic group is only determined by proportion of direct relations, and ignoring the culture you were raised in, connection to the community, etc….it does beg a few questions which can be applied to white people.
1. Suppose you and your partner were in a terrible accident, and both died, leaving a newborn child. That child was adopted by a Swedish couple, living in Australia, with dual citizenship. 6 years later they decide to return to Sweden. According to you, it would be wrong to take the child with them because that child is not Swedish by blood, and therefore should not be considered Swedish by Sweden, and should in fact be separated from its parents and left in Australia. Go You!
2. Suppose instead of an accident, your child grows up and marries someone from a different country (Let’s go Sweden again!), and has a child. If that child in turn marries and has children with a Swedish person in Australia (Hence making the children 1/4 Australian compared to 3/4 Swedish)-would you acknowledge that child as Australian, or will they be Swedish forever, even if they have never been to Sweden, and have lived in Australia as an Australian their entire life?
Yeah, it’s a bit easy to categorise people who is no way will ever effect you, isn’t it?
Hey JM I can see what you are saying about people’s surroundings and connections with people determining their identity, but I think in cases of representing a race or people unless you are actually a majority of that race by genetics, then it is not honest or a true representation of those people.
I’ll answer your examples also.
1 No it would not be wrong to take the child with the parents to Sweden. It would be incorrect for the child to claim to be an ethnic Swede. Their ethnicity would be whatever their birth parents in Australia were. The chances are that would be another white western ethnicity, most probably British, in which case the child would have grown up in Sweden, have biological white Australian parents of British decent, and just be another westerner living in Sweden, itself a white European country nothing unusual. The persons ethnicity is always British, doesn’t matter where they live.
2 So we have someone 3/4 Swedish ethnicity and 1/4 white Australian ethnicity, so most likely that is 3/4 Swedish and 1/4 British ethnicity in terms of origins. So with Australia being an relatively newly settled country made of white European, mostly British and Western migrants, the person would be an Australian that has Swedish and British heritage. I know people who have a similar heritage not that unusual. White Australian heritage is XYZ.
Essentially Australia is made up of white Australians from the Western world. That’s who settled Australian and the people we brought over from our homelands.
If we do your examples using Indians and Aboriginals it’s a very different story, because the Aboriginals exist only in Australia. They are their own special group. Indians might look a bit similar in that they have dark skin also, but they are a mix of ethnic groups, Arabs and other caucasian groups, Asians, Negroid and other South Asian races which forms their own special ethnic groups of Indians, sri Lankans etc.
Aboriginals have been in Australia for thousands of years, an Indian coming to Australia is an ethnic Indian. And Indian that marries a half caste Aboriginal produces a child that is half Indian, half white and half Aboriginal. This is a mixed race person the majority of their ethnicity being Indian. If that person marries another Indian then they are still a mixed race person predominantly of Indian heritage.
That person might be a wonderful person, might do great things, but it doesn’t matter where they grow up or what they do, their ethnicity is not that of a full blooded Aboriginal, or a half caste Aboriginal.
If an Indian person goes to an Aboriginal school and tops the school in every subject, then it’s not an Aboriginal who has done really well at school, it’s a person of Indian heritage that has done well. The person represents people of Indian heritage or mixed race heritage not Aboriginal heritage.
I’ll give an example and I’ll use something whites are often beaten at a sport such as Athletics. The mens 100m.
Every year I have seen has been an all black final. The runners who dominate are of African ethnicity. There are also some others like Aboriginal, some Melanesian peoples, but mostly we see Africans dominating. It’s rare for a white man running the 100m in less than 10 seconds, but many people of African ancestry have done this.
(a) If someone had an African father and a mother who was half white Australian (British) and half Indian so 1/2 African, 1/4 Indian and 1/4 white Caucasian and they ran the 100 metre sprint in less than 10 seconds and became famous. Does this person represent white people? Half African, 1/4 Indian, it’s a dark skinned Individual.
Because if we change the ethnicities around with the 1/4 being Aboriginal, well according to some people they most certainly are representing Aboriginals. Even when they are not majority aboriginal or just another darker non white race distinguishing them from white Caucasians.
If you are a tiger raised by lions, you are always a tiger. Even if you go to the moon and back, you are still a tiger. So if this tiger does something that is really amazing for lion behaviour, we would never say “wow this lion can do this, lets make it the leader and a representative of all lions” because naturally it’s a tiger, and tigers behave and do things a little differently to lions. So it’s not representing lions at all. It’s just a tiger living with lions that will always be a tiger and have tiger behaviour.
Why do we loose this objectiveness when dealing with people?
Okay, we’ll get started then.
“I think in cases of representing a race or people unless you are actually a majority of that race by genetics, then it is not honest or a true representation of those people.”
But why are you making this choice? Why is it the case that white men, and it’s almost always white men, are the ones saying who is or who isn’t an Aboriginie.
The Aboriginal community is rightfully proud of Nova Perris, and many others-who are you to say “This wonderful inclusive culture that recognises shared history over blood, shared upbringing over genetics-stop doing that! Start ostracising people because of their ancestry-NOW!”
And it’s interesting you say that when you define ethnicity only blood matters, considering that since as far back as 480BC onwards, ethcnicty has been defined as comrpised of-
Shared descent, shared language, shared sanctuaries, and shared cultural customs.
You think that actually the word ethnicity only applies to bloodlines, essentially meaning that our last two prime ministers aren’t Australian. Keep on redefining the dictionary to achieve the noble goal of convincing a group of already marginalised people to separate.
“The persons ethnicity is always British, doesn’t matter where they live.”
Excuse me. I’m not British. I’m Australia. My parents were Australian, my Grandparents were Australian, and so on for 150 years.
I share my language with the language of Australian work and business. I share my culture with the Australian culture, and engage in Australian customs. I do not engage in British customs, nor do I share sanctuaries with British people.
Now if you’re really believing that instead of having ethnicity and culture be determined not by the way you are raised and who you are, but instead determined by blood, and blood alone….then British ethnicity doesn’t exist.
You’re saying Aboriginals who have a mixed heritage aren’t really Aboriginal because of that mix. Well, hate to break it to you, but the concept of Britain in and of itself hasn’t existed forever. British is a mix of Celtish, French and German. Most of those ethnic groups were in turn made up of a mix of other culture before then, because nationality (Which you are completely confusing with ethnicity), basically isn’t that old (A couple of centuries tops). Eventually if you go back far enough,we’re all African ethnicity. Funnily enough you don’t find most people saying that. Instead ethnicity is defined as where your ancestors were living in the year 1800-no earlier!
And let’s get down to the reason people, again virtually all white men, start telling Aborigines what the definition of their culture is. They want Aborigines to disappear-then you don’t need to worry about stuff about stolen generations, loss of culture, loss of language, any guilt about slaughter or ongoing problems in the Aboriginal communities-just say that Aborigines don’t exist (Because most aboriginie are not full blooded, and have a mix somewhere) and suddenly everything is fine for you. But strangely enough, none of these guys like saying that a British ethnicity doesn’t exist.
When I’ve put these points to you, you’ve been happy to pretty much say, when it’s a white person, they can have a mix of culture, celebrate both, and not be excluded. But if it’s a brown person, then can have only one ethnicity, apparently, and no matter their upbringing, culture, or involvement in one particular culture, if their blood doesn’t match up, they’re not allowed to call themselves part of this community. Why do you want to have brown people, and again, only brown people, being forced to be categorised by you, when you’re happy for white people to have a range of ethnic backgrounds?
” they are a mix of ethnic groups, Arabs and other caucasian groups, Asians, Negroid a”
Negroid? Really? Where are you writing from-Civil War era texas?
“If an Indian person goes to an Aboriginal school and tops the school in every subject, then it’s not an Aboriginal who has done really well at school, it’s a person of Indian heritage that has done well.”
Wait a second here. You’ve already said that ethnicity is defined by blood and blood alone, ignoring about two millenia of definitions to the contrary (Go you!), and now you’re saying that if someone is raised as an aboriginie, grows up in an Aboriginal community, is of the Aboriginal culture, that person is indian if their genes work out a particular way.
And here’s the kicker-if that person does well at an Aboriginal school, that is not an Aboriginal person who has done well, it’s an Indian person who has done well. Do you know what that’s implying? It’s saying that no matter your upbringing, culture, society, living situation-if you do well it’s your blood that’s recognised. Do you honestly believe that intelligence and success is determined by blood? Because if you’re a crazy eugenics guy, that’s a whole other topic, so you should let us all know now.
“(a) If someone had an African father and a mother who was half white Australian (British) and half Indian so 1/2 African, 1/4 Indian and 1/4 white Caucasian and they ran the 100 metre sprint in less than 10 seconds and became famous. Does this person represent white people? ”
What country does that person recognise? That’s who they represent. Again, this is a ruling you ONLY apply to non-white people. You’ve already said if it was a person with a majortiy Swedish heritage in Australia they could be representing Swedish and Australia. But if there were brown, they have to choose only one country to celebrate.
This is what you eugenics lot ignore-ethnicity, and culture is more than skin colour. So much more. For instance, if an African person flees the Congo due to persecution, and becomes a famous runner in Australia-they might not want to be seen as a representative from the Congo, and much prefer Australia. In your theory, Albert Einstein would be a shining celebration of the German people-something he might disagree with you on, don’t you think?
“Because if we change the ethnicities around with the 1/4 being Aboriginal, well according to some people they most certainly are representing Aboriginals.”
Again, we’re not changing ethnicity rulings-you are changing the definition of ethnicity from what it was since 480BC.
And again-“according to some people”-these are Aboriginal elders, the people who represent, and know their communities. Not just randoms from the street. According to you, the leaders of the community should be ignored in defining their community, in favour of you, a dulux colour chart, and a lecture about why “Doesn’t matter that your sole parent is Aboriginal, doesn’t matter you were raised Aboriginal, living in an Aboriginal community and are a part of the Aboriginal culture, you’ve got too many white people in your ancestry, so you aren’t Abroginal. Now excuse me as I celebrate as many cultural backgrounds as I want-because I’m white!”
“If you are a tiger raised by lions, you are always a tiger. ”
Now you’re saying Aborigines are a different species than white people? If not that is a truly idiotic and offensive statement to make.
” and tigers behave and do things a little differently to lions.”
Oh, now we’ve hit the heart of the matter. Are you saying directly now that Aboriginal people and other groups are genetically predisposed to behaviours completely separately from their upbringing, culture, living situation, and local community?
Because it sounds like you’r saying Nova Perris (Who you have defined as not Aboriginal using the totally objective measure of “She doesn’t look Aboriginal”) is able to be a great athlete not because of training, intensive motivation, etc, but because you think she’s got some other sort of ancestry. And also that Jessica Mauboy is an amazing singer not because of her training, support, learning, practice, etc, but because she has genes from non-Aboriginal people.
I can’t wait to hear your response with this.
“Why do we loose this objectiveness when dealing with people?”
Why? Because people are complex. You can’t just do a maths measurement and define an entire group of people from theo utside in.
I mean, even the term Aboriginal is a term created after the fact. You previously talked about Indians being made up of many different groups, and made up of multiple subgroups.
Newsflash! So are Aborigines! Lot’s of different tribes. Common history, mixed ancestry, and current society creates a unity between them, but going around and saying “They have x% aboriginal blood” ignores the fact that until white people turned up, the Aboriginal people didn’t think of themselves as Aboriginal.
And this is true everywhere. Presumably, if you saw someone who is white in France you’d call them French. This ignores the many cultural groups, native cultural groups, within France, as well as most other countries (In Asia and Africa as well as Europe). England too-you define someone as British-they may see themselves as Cornish due to culture, upbringing, and yes, blood even.
Now categorisation can be fine when you are just using it for simplification purposes, to measure a group of people. When you are trying to get a quick image of a large group of people simplification saves time without offending too many people. But when you use it to exclude others, especially from an external viewpoint (External “You can’t be a part of this group due to rules I made up” Internal “You can’t be a part of my group due to rules we have set up for centuries”), categorisation doesn’t work!
Now, I hope by the time you write back, if you write back, you will have prepared a full family history to find out exactly what your ethnicity is, and will presumably be going back to somewhere in the Horn of Africa, to a country that you can truly be a part of. After all, if blood is the only thing that matters….that’s where we’re all from.
JM the biggest problem I have with your way of thinking is you are confusing culture with ethnicity. Culture changes as people travel around the world. Ethnicity does not . An Australian with grandparents from Britain is of an Australian of British Ethnicity.
The only Australian Ethnicity is the Australian Aboriginal. If you are a white Australian then you have your heritage from somewhere else. That is your ethnicity.
White Australians do have their own culture, but their ethnicity is that of a Western European.
White Australians are the founders of modern developed Australia, and Australia is part of the British empire. But we originally have our origins in Western Europe despite having a unique culture here.
I know that you do not want to talk about genetics JM, but lets not kid ourselves not every person on this earth is the same. I look at it this way, every race is a master in their environment and way of living in their environment.
In the modern world totally removed from that, people also perform in various ways and to be fair, a portion of this success or lack of success is genetic.
Indians and other Asians don’t have some of the struggles of Aboriginal people, so it’s unfair to hard working Aboriginals when a person who is of Asian or Indian ethnicity who does not suffer any disadvantage, takes advantage of aboriginal support designed to help people of Aboriginal ethnicity.
If someone’s ethnicity is from India or Asia then they are not an Australian Aboriginal.
It doesn’t matter what they choose to identify themselves as.
When I was a kid I saw an aboriginal performance and there were four people one full blooded aboriginal two half castes or about equal portions of white and Aboriginal and one guy who was just an Asian.
I understand if you need to make up numbers or someone pulls out, but don’t just put in an Asian guy and expect us to not notice lol.
It is our observation that the self-styled Ubermenschen are in fact Untermenschen.
Their criminal records, delusional behaviour and general demeanour and presentation are sufficient evidence.
JM I have some real short questions to ask just yes or no style.
Barack Obama black dad, white mum. Is he white?
Jessica Mauboy Indonesian dad, white mum some aboriginal. Is she Aboriginal?
Jamal Idris Nigerian father, mixed white and aboriginal mother. Is he Aboriginal?
They’re Aboriginal if the mob says they are. End of story.
Most people would say
Obama is black evidence, (well he is not white). he is just as much white as he is black.
Most people would say Jessica Mauboy is Aboriginal evidence (well she is not white, must be) her father is Indonesian, her mother is predominantly white Australia who claims to have aboriginal ancestry. she is much less Aboriginal than Obama is white. How lucky is she to be darked skinned so that she can claim aboriginal. What a help that has been to her music career.
Jamal Idris Most people would say that he is aboriginal evidence (well he is not white) he has a Nigerian father, his mother is mixed white and aboriginal. Again he is less Aboriginal than Obama is white.
The point to grasp is that just because someone is dark and not a white Australian doesn’t mean that they are automatically aboriginal. The might be a mixed race person with aboriginal ancestry, but if someone is less than half aboriginal. Does not have a full blooded Aboriginal parent and has a parent of another non aboriginal race then by genetics, by genetics, they are majority NOT Aboriginal.
A person who was white with the same small amount of aboriginal ancestry would not be able to get the same support. It would be obvious to all the small amount of aboriginal heritage. But because they are another dark skinned race they can pull this off.This is my point.
I understand this sites concept of breaking down barriers between races and stamping out racism and discrimination etc, I understand that anyone can call themselves an aboriginal for a variety of reason, whether they grew up in an aboriginal community etc etc.
Aboriginal people do receive a lot of assistance. A lot. This is fine in a lot of peoples opinions, provided that they are infact an aboriginal genetically.
We are not about helping Asians, or mixed race people, we are about helping Aboriginals, and people who are the most aboriginal should receive the most help.
That is you must be at least 50% aboriginal to receive help, or call yourself an aboriginal, otherwise you are a mixed race person with a portion of Aboriginal heritage and a larger portion another heritage.
Someone like Nova Peres is never going to be acknowledged as a full aboriginal as she is an Indian, Mauboy same deal, shes an Indonesian.
Obama, well he is half and half so he can identify as a mixed race person or either race. A lot of people though choose to only identify with his African heritage and ignore his white European heritage.
I think it is important to distinguish between full blooded Aboriginals and People who have less than half of their ancestry aboriginal, but are claiming to represent Aboriginals and are receiving a lot of benefits and support from this.
That’s my opinion, I have a clear strong opinion on this. You guys might not agree with this opinion. That’s fine, I’ve stated my opinion and I appreciate you at least considering what I have had to say.
It’s here so we can rip it to pieces. That’s all.
“Culture changes as people travel around the world. Ethnicity does not”
According to you. Not to the dictionary, as I stated.
” An Australian with grandparents from Britain is of an Australian of British Ethnicity.”
Again, if we go by blood and blood alone, British ethnicity doesn’t exist. So why are you using it? Why is British ethnicity allowed to exist even though it is a mix of all other european nations, themselves and mix of each other, and spread from Africa, but there are ultra specific rules to Aboriginal ethnicity which ignores upbringing, culture, and community?
“Indians and other Asians don’t have some of the struggles of Aboriginal people,”
Yes, they don’t have the same social stigma, poverty in their communities, high rates of poverty-but are you saying these social factors are in fact genetic?
“If someone’s ethnicity is from India or Asia then they are not an Australian Aboriginal.”
Again-that’s your statement. And again, if you’re white you get to have as many origisn as you want, but if you’re not, you get one. That’s it, just one. And you don’t get to choose that one-a white guy on the internet answers for you.
“JM I have some real short questions to ask just yes or no style.”
Oh, we’ve come to this, have we? The “I’ll demand a simple answer from a complex question to push a response”
Well you’re not going to get a simple response. Just as I won’t be asking you for a yes or no question to “Have you stopped beating up women?”
“Barack Obama black dad, white mum. Is he white?”
He’s mixed race. He recognises himself as mixed race, seeing the importance of his heritage in Africa, but also his anglo heritage from hism other.
But here’s where racism comes in . Because he’s black, he don’t get a choice.
“Jessica Mauboy Indonesian dad, white mum some aboriginal. Is she Aboriginal?”
Mauboy was raised in the Aboriginal communities, part of Aboriginal culture, and is recognised by the Aboriginal community. She’s Aboriginal.
“Jamal Idris Nigerian father, mixed white and aboriginal mother. Is he Aboriginal?”
I don’t know him. What community was he raised in, what culture was he raised in, what community recognises him, and what does he identify himself as?
Now you say repeatedly this isn’t for you, you’re talking on behalf of a lot of people, or even most people. Naturally you have evidence of this?
No? None at all?
“That is you must be at least 50% aboriginal to receive help, or call yourself an aboriginal, otherwise you are a mixed race person with a portion of Aboriginal heritage and a larger portion another heritage.”
So, your great way of helping the Aboriginal communities is to say “You are no longer allowed to determine who is a part of your community-we white people will define you now”
Do you understand why that might not actually go over well amongst Aboriginal elders?
“Someone like Nova Peres is never going to be acknowledged as a full aboriginal as she is an Indian, Mauboy same deal, shes an Indonesian.”
They both already are acknowledged as Aborigines by their community, and society at large. You’re not acknowledging them (Espeically in the case of Nova who you are ruling out because she looks Indian!)-doesn’t mean the rest of society isn’t.
And here are the questions you ignored:
1. But why are you making this choice? Why is it the case that white men, and it’s almost always white men, are the ones saying who is or who isn’t an Aboriginie.
2. The Aboriginal community is rightfully proud of Nova Perris, and many others-who are you to say “This wonderful inclusive culture that recognises shared history over blood, shared upbringing over genetics-stop doing that! Start ostracising people because of their ancestry-NOW!”
3. Why do you want to have brown people, and again, only brown people, being forced to be categorised by you, when you’re happy for white people to have a range of ethnic backgrounds?
4. . Do you know what that’s implying? It’s saying that no matter your upbringing, culture, society, living situation-if you do well it’s your blood that’s recognised. Do you honestly believe that intelligence and success is determined by blood? Because if you’re a crazy eugenics guy, that’s a whole other topic, so you should let us all know now.
5. In your theory, Albert Einstein would be a shining celebration of the German people-something he might disagree with you on, don’t you think?
6. Now you’re saying Aborigines are a different species than white people? If not that is a truly idiotic and offensive statement to make.
7. Oh, now we’ve hit the heart of the matter. Are you saying directly now that Aboriginal people and other groups are genetically predisposed to behaviours completely separately from their upbringing, culture, living situation, and local community? (Nice dodging of that question there)
Because it sounds like you’r saying Nova Perris (Who you have defined as not Aboriginal using the totally objective measure of “She doesn’t look Aboriginal”) is able to be a great athlete not because of training, intensive motivation, etc, but because you think she’s got some other sort of ancestry. And also that Jessica Mauboy is an amazing singer not because of her training, support, learning, practice, etc, but because she has genes from non-Aboriginal people.
Ok JM I’ll do you the courtesy of answering what I feel is relevant. I would have appreciated it if you addressed some of my concise questions with a short direct concise answer regarding some well known mixed race people. But I can see the all inclusive angle you are taking on this the “people can identify however they like” approach. So I’m going to take that as your view.
Regards to the ethnicity of Britain. Yes totally agree, it is made up of a mix of different ethnic groups. You have the Celtic peoples, then the Romans for a brief period, then the Germanic people collectively known as Anglo Saxons from Denmark to the low coutries on the mainland occuping England, as well as Vikings from Scandinavia, then the Norman Conquest in 1066 with French Norman people (Norwegian viking and French mix) conquering the south of England. You also have continueous trade with the mainland Germanic peoples in the East of Britain, so not surprising a lot of genetics similarities there. So yes they are a group with mixed ethnicities, and depending on where you originate in Britain your ethnicity might be closer to the Germanics or closer to the celtics or the Normans, and that’s just England, Scotland has a similar but unique history also. Most people are a bit of a mix of these groups. It’s not a big place Britain or Western Europe and it’s easy to identify a Westerner in a group of different non white peoples. By your same line of thought pacific Islanders or south East Asians are not one specific race, but a combination of races also. All those people are a combination of more northerly Asian groups and negroid peoples like the melanesians and possibly also other south Asian groups similar to the highland New Guineans or Australian Aboriginals.
But does a person from Tonga have the right to say they are Tongan? Absolutely. So do people who are British. The Pacific Islanders have developed their ethnicity over a few thousand years, so have the modern British people. Some Tongans are more Asian like and more like Samoans with less Melanesian mix, some Tongans are darker and more like Melanesians. Some British people are more Germanic, some are more Celtic. It’s the same deal. All groups are entitled to say that they are British or English or Tongan or Samoan. People know what they mean. It’s not some kind of in depth statement. It’s just where you are from.
Lets come back to the original discussion we were having on the Indigenous people and specifically peoples degree of Aboriginal genetics in relation to the support that they receive and the ability to claim Aboriginal status.
I think that the Indigenous people are in fact disadvantaged in modern Australia. You may disagree and have some idealist vision, but I am a realist, and It is my belief that they not only suffer disadvantage relative to other ethnic groups such as Europeans, Asians and Indians, but suffer these disadvantages in a profound manner.
The “gap” as we call it, is huge. This is not any specific person or groups fault, the gap is real and it exists and because of that “gap”, we try to help to make up for these inequalities as much as possible. Some people would say that we go too far with this support, and that there are other needy Australians in a similar position who are being ignored or missing out, and that the Aboriginal group have become “privileged” and “entitled” purely on the basis of race, but that’s branching off into another discussion.
It’s my belief that some level of assistance is necessary, but it’s my belief that this assistance should be given on the basis of degree of genetic Aboriginality and that sole determining measure. The people who are the most Aboriginal genetically are the ones that suffer the most entrenched disadvantage when it comes to success as defined in modern Australia. Things like health outcomes, education, self sufficiency rates of domestic violence and other crime, drug and alcohol abuse. The basic measures which we define in a logical way to determine a persons well being and success. Tell me that this is not a good way to determine success? Living in a positive healthy way is what we want for everyone in Australia, Aboriginals no exception. So these are the outcome measures that we use.
Keeping those outcomes in mind, we look at people who are not full blooded Aboriginals.( An important group of people who often have a unique ability to bring together the Indigenous and non Indigenous communities, and help convey the needs and ideas of the indigenous communities to the non indigenous community.) That is one or more of their relatives is from another non Aboriginal Australian ethnic group. This includes many of the famous Aboriginal Australians.
These people are not at the same level of disadvantage or do not suffer the same “gap” when it comes to the outcomes for successful living in modern Australia.
So naturally if there is a playing feild that is level with mixed race Aboriginals and full blooded Aboriginals, the full blooded Aboriginals are going to miss out. They will be out performed in a lot of modern measures by the half blooded and 1/8th blooded Aboriginals fairly reliably, and this is the case in a pragmatic setting. Someone who is 1/8th Aboriginal such as Jessica Mauboy should not be entitled to the same assistance and support as someone who is a full blooded aboriginal. That’s fair, we spend more money on our indigenous population than any, any other country in the world, spends on their Indigenous population. I think that this fact needs to be recognised, and the effort, with some positive success needs to be recognised too. Governments have done a load to help out, financially anyway. But this hasn’t always worked as well as we would like.
I think that more of the assistance for Aboriginals should focus on people who are genetically a majority portion Aboriginal. They are the people who have the worst outcomes, so rightfully any assistance should be directed at them, not people who are half indonesian, not people who are Indian, not people who are 1/8th Aboriginal, but people who are majority genetically aboriginal and can prove this.
Half castes and quarter castes still have a role in the community, but the level of Assistance and the ability to claim Aboriginal ethnicity should consider the degree to which the individual is actually an aboriginal genetically.
When we have a prime minister such as Julian Gillard that is making room at the expense of others so that we can get an “Aboriginal” who is really an Indian into the Senate, that’s when we need to have a hard examination of the whole system and how we define who is an Aboriginal and who is entitled to represent Aboriginals and who is entitled to publicly claim an Aboriginal identity and benefit from this.
“I would have appreciated it if you addressed some of my concise questions with a short direct concise answer regarding some well known mixed race people. ”
You were pushing to a simple result for a highly complicated question. It would be like me asking you to define the meaning of life in one word. Entirely ridiculous.
Incidentally my comments were succinct and to the point. But if you want one word answers or yes or no, then I’ll bring back the question I suggested previously-Have you stopped beating up women no more foreign?
“Regards to the ethnicity of Britain. Yes totally agree, it is made up of a mix of different ethnic groups.”
Then why talk about British ethnicity? That was your own choice of words. Why do you continue to define Britain as an ethnicity when we’ve stated it doesn’t exist?
“By your same line of thought pacific Islanders or south East Asians are not one specific race, but a combination of races also.”
True. All nations are a mix of ethnicities, and if you go back far enough, we all go from Africa.
” The Pacific Islanders have developed their ethnicity over a few thousand years, so have the modern British people.”
Um, no. British didn’t exist 1,000 years ago. As you well know.
” All groups are entitled to say that they are British or English or Tongan or Samoan. ”
Wait, so if you’re Tongan, British, English, etc you can say you belong to that ethnicity (Your definition), but if you’re Aboriginie, only you, a white man, can say what a person’s ethnicity is, which will be based on their blood and who they look like.
Is this not a double standard?
“Lets come back to the original discussion we were having on the Indigenous people and specifically peoples degree of Aboriginal genetics in relation to the support that they receive and the ability to claim Aboriginal status.”
Why? Why are you again creating a double standard, whereby Aborigines are not allowed to define who is an Aboriginie, but White people can define themselves anyway they want?
“I think that the Indigenous people are in fact disadvantaged in modern Australia.”
Never denied that. We’re talking huge historical and systemic disadvantage effecting everyone on a social level. That’s what I’m talking about.
You’re talking about a genetic level of disadvantage, which you curiously don’t want to get into detail on, probably because it’s inherently racist.
“It’s my belief that some level of assistance is necessary, but it’s my belief that this assistance should be given on the basis of degree of genetic Aboriginality and that sole determining measure. ”
This would only be valid if you can prove that disadvantage is due entirely to genetics, rather than social disadvantage.
Otherwise you would say two families who live in the ame street, have the same income, same education standards, belong to the same culture, same tribe, but have slightly different ancestry, would have completely different quality of life standards. And you’d need to prove that.
” The people who are the most Aboriginal genetically are the ones that suffer the most entrenched disadvantage when it comes to success as defined in modern Australia. ”
You naturally will have sources proving that two families living in the same community, raised in the same culture, both recognised by the Aboriginal elders, and both involved in the Aboriginal community practices will differ greatly in domestic violence, education outcomes, drug and alcohol abuse based on the genetics of each family alone.
Right? Nope? No evidence of this?
How about evidence that Aborigines genetically have a greater likelihood for domestic violence, poor education outcomes, or dependency on others? Naturally you’ll have a report stating the exact genome this comes from, which parent it needs to be inherited from?
Because otherwise, it’s complete BS.
“These people are not at the same level of disadvantage or do not suffer the same “gap” when it comes to the outcomes for successful living in modern Australia.”
Again-you have no evidence of this. Your entire argument is
A – Aboriginal genes are predisposed to domestic violence and poor education, completely separate from all societal factors.
B – Non Aborigines are not predisposed to domestic violence, poor education, etc.
Therefore
C – Aborigines who have less Aboriginal genes are less predisposed to domestic violence, and poor education.
The problem is, no more foreign, you haven’t proven A or B. Not at all. And I completely disagree with you on both points.
“I think that more of the assistance for Aboriginals should focus on people who are genetically a majority portion Aboriginal. They are the people who have the worst outcomes, ”
Again-you haven’t provided any evidence of this.
“When we have a prime minister such as Julian Gillard that is making room at the expense of others so that we can get an “Aboriginal” who is really an Indian into the Senate,”
Again, your evidence that Nova isn’t Aboriginal is that “She doesn’t look Aboriginal to me”-how is that conclusive?
“how we define who is an Aboriginal and who is entitled to represent Aboriginals ”
So not only are you saying “Aboriginal elders aren’t allowed to say who belongs to a tribe anymore-the white people get to do it now!” you’re also saying “Tribal elders aren’t allowed to represent their community anymore-white people are going to choose representatives for them”
Your complete plan for self sufficiency for Aborigines seems to be “Remove any internal authority and make them all wards of the state”
Is that really what you want?
And here again, is the things you ignored:
1. “Indians and other Asians don’t have some of the struggles of Aboriginal people,”
Yes, they don’t have the same social stigma, poverty in their communities, high rates of poverty-but are you saying these social factors are in fact genetic?
2. Now you say repeatedly this isn’t for you, you’re talking on behalf of a lot of people, or even most people. Naturally you have evidence of this?
3. So, your great way of helping the Aboriginal communities is to say “You are no longer allowed to determine who is a part of your community-we white people will define you now”
Do you understand why that might not actually go over well amongst Aboriginal elders?
4. But why are you making this choice? Why is it the case that white men, and it’s almost always white men, are the ones saying who is or who isn’t an Aboriginie.
5. Do you know what that’s implying? It’s saying that no matter your upbringing, culture, society, living situation-if you do well it’s your blood that’s recognised. Do you honestly believe that intelligence and success is determined by blood? Because if you’re a crazy eugenics guy, that’s a whole other topic, so you should let us all know now.
6. In your theory, Albert Einstein would be a shining celebration of the German people-something he might disagree with you on, don’t you think?
7. Now you’re saying Aborigines are a different species than white people? If not that is a truly idiotic and offensive statement to make.
Have a look at a few photos of Indians and Sri Lankans and a few photos of Aboriginals then compare Nova Peris. She’s a clear Indian, but wow hasn’t claiming Aboriginal worked well for her! She even gets given a seat in the Senate.
Great athlete, not Aboriginal.
So that’s how we’re testing culture now, is it? Looking at pictures, then guessing! That’s so much more authentic than checking the upbringing, involvement in the community, etc.
Well, no more foreign….you don’t look Australian to me. You don’t sound Australian to me. I don’t think you are really Australian.
Will you be now leaving Australia as a result? I mean, my view that you are not Australian is just as authentic as your view-so naturally you’ll be relinquishing your citizenship.
JM would like Indians to get the benefits of full blooded Aboriginals. He would also like the Aboriginals to have control of all their affairs and strategies for “closing the gap” and how they spend government money. Because this will work so well, and has worked so well. Lets see, what do they currently spend their money on when they are given it by the government. cigarettes, alcohol, drugs,material items. Yeah I can see how that will work really well, not. We give them too much control and money is wasted, that is the problem!
no more foreign believes Aborigines are genetically predisposed to family violence, alcoholism, poor education, and poverty-and this is not effected by historical or societal factors at all-it’s all genes to him!
He also believes that Aborigines should become wards of the state, with no rights to self determination, and entirely ruled by white people. Because that’s worked so well in the past.
Which begs the question-does he think Aborigines need to exist? After all-if he doesn’t think anyone who has some non-Aboriginal blood in them as Aboriginal, and thinks Aboriginal blood causes poor education outcomes, family violence, drug and alcohol problems, and general poverty, which can only be cured by mixing in some non Aboriginal blood which minimises these risks…..it sounds like he’s wanting to “Breed the black out of them” like we aimed to do back in the first half of the 20th century. And didn’t that go so well!
As you’ve ignored the questions, I will repeat them:
1. “Indians and other Asians don’t have some of the struggles of Aboriginal people,”
Yes, they don’t have the same social stigma, poverty in their communities, high rates of poverty-but are you saying these social factors are in fact genetic?
2. Now you say repeatedly this isn’t for you, you’re talking on behalf of a lot of people, or even most people. Naturally you have evidence of this?
3. So, your great way of helping the Aboriginal communities is to say “You are no longer allowed to determine who is a part of your community-we white people will define you now”
Do you understand why that might not actually go over well amongst Aboriginal elders?
4. But why are you making this choice? Why is it the case that white men, and it’s almost always white men, are the ones saying who is or who isn’t an Aboriginie.
5. Do you know what that’s implying? It’s saying that no matter your upbringing, culture, society, living situation-if you do well it’s your blood that’s recognised. Do you honestly believe that intelligence and success is determined by blood? Because if you’re a crazy eugenics guy, that’s a whole other topic, so you should let us all know now.
6. In your theory, Albert Einstein would be a shining celebration of the German people-something he might disagree with you on, don’t you think?
7. Now you’re saying Aborigines are a different species than white people? If not that is a truly idiotic and offensive statement to make.
8. Then why talk about British ethnicity? That was your own choice of words. Why do you continue to define Britain as an ethnicity when we’ve stated it doesn’t exist?
9. Wait, so if you’re Tongan, British, English, etc you can say you belong to that ethnicity (Your definition), but if you’re Aboriginie, only you, a white man, can say what a person’s ethnicity is, which will be based on their blood and who they look like.
Is this not a double standard?
10. You naturally will have sources proving that two families living in the same community, raised in the same culture, both recognised by the Aboriginal elders, and both involved in the Aboriginal community practices will differ greatly in domestic violence, education outcomes, drug and alcohol abuse based on the genetics of each family alone.
Right? Nope? No evidence of this?
11. How about evidence that Aborigines genetically have a greater likelihood for domestic violence, poor education outcomes, or dependency on others? Naturally you’ll have a report stating the exact genome this comes from, which parent it needs to be inherited from?
Because otherwise, it’s complete BS.
12. “I think that more of the assistance for Aboriginals should focus on people who are genetically a majority portion Aboriginal. They are the people who have the worst outcomes, ”
Again-you haven’t provided any evidence of this.
13. Again, your evidence that Nova isn’t Aboriginal is that “She doesn’t look Aboriginal to me”-how is that conclusive?
14. Your complete plan for self sufficiency for Aborigines seems to be “Remove any internal authority and make them all wards of the state”
Is that really what you want?
Just to be clear, no more foreign, under what situations would you say an Aboriginal person is allowed to have rights? I mean, is there a test they’d need to pass, or do you want them to be legally second class citizens for their entire life?
Just want to be clear if you want slavery, or just legally entrenched racism?
The other thing too, is people from other countries like Europe and America come here and try and help with our Indigenous people, or talk about how the suicide rate is really low or non existent in some of the Canadian Aboriginals etc but they have to appreciate that our Aboriginal population is very different to theirs. Their population simply does not suffer the same types of disadvantage at anywhere near the same level as our Indigenous population. They are completely different peoples. You have to actually see first hand to appreciate the struggle that these people have. In terms of education they struggle significantly whereas the indigenous peoples of Canada do not. In terms of health this is one area that can be nailed. We can get rid of the alcohol, we can get rid of the cigarettes. They might not choose this for themselves, in fact they don’t want this, but we can say we will create a tobacco and alcohol free environment for them, even if this means restricting these things from all of the population, because these things are bad for all of us. So I applaud some of the new measures that have come into effect regarding alcohol in the NT. They will be effective. As a nation if we stop smoking and drinking we will be far better off in regards to the citizens health, that includes Aboriginals.
The way I see it, you close the gap by taking measures that are not directed solely at the indigenous, you take measures that will help everyone! Sometimes this is the most effective thing to do. Drugs, Alcohol, Tobacco, Soft drinks. Take measures to control them and you will help everyone black and white.
Still no evidence that Aboriginal genes cause a predisposition towards family violence, alcoholism, drug addiction, poor education outcomes, etc…Why is that? It is the central plank of everything you’ve written here-so why can’t you read it.
And why ban alcohol for all Aborigines everywhere, when non aborigines have more dangerous drinking behaviors than Aborigines?
Source:
Coming from research here:
http://www.creativespirits.info/aboriginalculture/health/aboriginal-alcohol-consumption
This is called evidence, and some key points coming out from this include:
“Fewer Aboriginal people drink daily or at least once a week than non-Indigenous people do. Many more Aboriginal people consume alcohol once a month or even less frequently. This is in stark contrast to the image the media tries to reinforce when reporting about “staggering quantities of alcohol” being consumed.”
And this:
“Across all age groups less Aboriginal people consume alcohol in the low risk group. Only in three age groups is the number of Aboriginal people significantly higher.
Source: Australian Bureau of Statistics, National Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Health Survey 2004-05”
So this is evidence that Aborigines are NOT genetically predisposed to alcoholism. If anything it’s a good reason to ban alcohol everywhere, as it is a dangerous drug for all Australia. I doubt you’ll be calling for that for some reason though..,.funny that.
Naturally you have evidence that suggests, to the contrary, that as soon as an Aboriginal child is conceived, those genes make it predisposed to family violence, alcoholism and poor education outcomes.
There is theory and there is reality, implementation and results. Your ideas JM have been shown time and time again to not work and make basic outcomes of health, education and violence worse.
My idea of not giving control of money to Aboriginal people and focusing on the things that cause these problems actually works. If it was up to JM he would not support the NT intervention by the Howard government. Oh no, it’s society’s problem, white people are to blame, they are discriminated against. Nothing is genetic, that’s racist blah blah.
So JM is all about letting the Aboriginals do as they please in this modern world. Well when we have things like alcohol abuse and there is consistently cases of children under the age of 10 being sexually abused and women are being beaten up.
You can either take direct action or you can do nothing, give away money to be recklessly spent and keep giving them freedoms to abuse.
It’s about living in a positive civilised manner and that means control of those things.
How is there no evidence of genetic Aboriginals having more of these problems. There is a whole history of it! That is what the gap is!
What’s a “genetic Aboriginal”?
Here’s another quote from the article I just published. Pretty decent source. Pity you have nothing, not a damn thing, to back up your belief that Aboriginal people are predisposed due to their genes to family violnece, poor education outcomes, and alcoholism.
Here’s the quote:
“But a growing body of research suggests that such programmes fail because they do not actively involve Aboriginal communities. The most successful programmes are developed in partnership with Indigenous communities [4
Read more: http://www.creativespirits.info/aboriginalculture/health/aboriginal-alcohol-consumption#toc3#ixzz2giOEhXId”
So, fancy that? Alcohol bans work….when you work with Aboriginal people, and don’t work when you just tell them what to do. Seems like a bit of a contradiction with what you’ve been saying. Naturally you have evidence to back you up.
I joke, of course. You’ve got nothing to back up your beliefs. Not a damn thing.
“There is theory and there is reality, implementation and results. Your ideas JM have been shown time and time again to not work and make basic outcomes of health, education and violence worse.”
Naturally you have evidence of this reality, right? Nope-you don’t. You’re making it up.
“My idea of not giving control of money to Aboriginal people and focusing on the things that cause these problems actually works.”
Evidence of that. Come on, you say stuff like “It works, it works in reality” and “This is a fact” but when asked for evidence you give nothing.
You say it works. Prove it or shut up.
” If it was up to JM he would not support the NT intervention by the Howard government.”
Problems associated with the NT Intervention. and there we were thinking it was all happy families:
Health services have to deal with people having difficulties to detox.
Drug use can increase, especially amphetamines [1,17,25].
Student school attendance drops significantly [9].
Violence and fighting increases [9].
Alcohol addicts embark on grog sprints driving hundreds of kilometres to buy alcohol, increasing their risk of having an accident in the process [17].
Non-drinkers do sly-grogging to supply drinkers with alcohol [25].
Families lose money because of fines they have to pay when a member violates the ban [25].
Drinkers simply relocate, for example to the outskirts of town.
Crime rates rise as people break into properties looking for alcohol.
Drinkers set up drinking camps outside restricted zones where they binge drink [3
Read more: http://www.creativespirits.info/aboriginalculture/health/aboriginal-alcohol-consumption#toc3#ixzz2giPLHyD4
” Oh no, it’s society’s problem, white people are to blame, they are discriminated against. Nothing is genetic, that’s racist blah blah.”
I was saying there is are social factors leading to alcoholism, explaining why alcoholims and drug usage increases in locations where there is poverty-amongst aboriginal and non-aboriginal communities. Same with family violence.
You instead are saying that an Aboriginal child, newborn, is going to be involved in family violence because of its blood.
Prove it. Prove it now.
“Well when we have things like alcohol abuse and there is consistently cases of children under the age of 10 being sexually abused and women are being beaten up.”
And do you think the Aboriginal community leaders want these problems to continue? Do you think they’re not aware of them?
As the article I showed to you demonstrated-programs work to change dangerous behaviour in the Aboriginal communities when community leaders are involved at the start, and don’t work when community leaders are lectured to.
Apparently you’d like the less effective lecture, rather than actually working with community leaders (Because then you’d have to let them degtermine who is an Aboriginie-and that’s your job remember! Bring out the Dulux chart)
“It’s about living in a positive civilised manner and that means control of those things.”
It’s about fact and research based interventions-not going in heavy handed and telling people what to do, ignoring the many leaders which are working with the community to resolve these problems to a much better effect.
Those are the statistics, but the reality is you only need to drive around some of the areas like Alice Springs, Darwin, places in Queensland to see what alcohol does to these people. They can not process alcohol as efficiently as Europeans either, and the ones that do drink have problems. I’ve seen this. Maybe you haven’t.
So basically you are arguing that Aboriginals shouldn’t have alcohol restricted?
I have not looked at the finer detail of that survey. Alcohol is a problem in the white community also! It is a known carcinogen just like tobacco smoke, and here is a statistic for you, Aboriginals suffer at higher rates for nearly all types of cancer except skin cancers.
Most whites that do drink only do so in small quantities like 1-2 glasses of wine of beer. Your statistic doesn’t look at how much alcohol the Aboriginals who do drink consume.
That I am guessing would paint a different picture similar to the one we are familiar with.
My interpretation is there are a lot of dry zones counted as no alcohol for the population, but where there are not dry zones the people abuse alcohol at far higher levels than the white population.
And even if this wasn’t the case, surely we can all agree that alcohol is not a health drink. It’s not good for any of us in a productive positive society.
“How is there no evidence of genetic Aboriginals having more of these problems. There is a whole history of it! That is what the gap is!
Then prove it. Prove to me right now that Aboriginal genes cause a person’s predisposition to drug and alcohol addiction, family violence, and poor education outcomes, entirely separately from any social reasons.
Don’t just say “There’s lots of evidence, but only I can see it”-we’ve all read the emperor’s new clothes here, we know how that story goes. If your “facts” are so overwhelmingly obvious, then why can’t you provide any proof of them?
You say there’s so much evidence, but you have provided nothing. Not a singly bit of evidence to prove any of the following claims:
1. I am talking on behalf of a lot of people in Australia, when I say we need to define people who don’t look Aboriginal as not Aboriginal.
2. People with majority aboriginal blood will have a greater likelihood of alcohol addiction, drug addiction, family violence and poor education outcomes, than someone with a lower rate of Aboriginal blood living in the same community, with the same culture and same socio-economic scale.
3. Aborigines are genetically more likely to be involved in alcohol, drugs, or family violence.
4. People who have majority Aboriginal blood have the worst outcomes.
5. Stopping Aboriginal people (Presumably everywhere) from having access to money actually works.
You have stated all these things as facts. You have provided nothing but opinion. Many of these facts have been directly contradicted by an article I provided.
You have facts-then provide evidence. Otherwise you may leave, safe in the knowledge that your eugenics crap is based on misinformation, bias and racism.
“Those are the statistics, but the reality is you only need to drive around some of the areas like Alice Springs, Darwin, places in Queensland to see what alcohol does to these people”
Yes, it’s true. I have statistics of entire communities across the country, but no more foreign has biased reporting from a car drive. That’s so much more reliable.
I’ve seen alcohol do terrible things to white people too. Shall we ban all white people from having money?
Facts or get out.
” They can not process alcohol as efficiently as Europeans either, and the ones that do drink have problems. ”
Evidence or get out.
“I have not looked at the finer detail of that survey. ”
Maybe you should read before you comment. Just a suggestion. You may learn something (If you want to).
“Aboriginals suffer at higher rates for nearly all types of cancer except skin cancers.
Evidence this is firstly true, and based entirely on genetics (Not poorer access to medicine) or get out.
“Most whites that do drink only do so in small quantities like 1-2 glasses of wine of beer. Your statistic doesn’t look at how much alcohol the Aboriginals who do drink consume.”
Yes it actually does. You would know this if you read the article.
Evidence or get out.
“That I am guessing would paint a different picture similar to the one we are familiar with.”
You’re guessing? You making all these comments not on research, but on guessing?
You have no evidence. You’ve got some bullshit eugenics craps you read online from a website that recently lost their Hitler picture, and you’ve based your world view on that.
“My interpretation is there are a lot of dry zones counted as no alcohol for the population, but where there are not dry zones the people abuse alcohol at far higher levels than the white population.”
Evidence or get out. This again is based on nothing.
“And even if this wasn’t the case, surely we can all agree that alcohol is not a health drink”
Yes, but we’re not talking about that. You’re talking about taking away only Aborigines money, and telling entire communities what to do, because you believe they don’t have the right to self determination like white people do. You are also saying Aboriginal blood results in a greater likelihood of Aborigines becoming alcoholic, durg addicted, and involved in family violence.
You have not provided proof of any of this.
Evidence or get out.
I can say first hand that alcohol abuse is a problem in the Indigenous population. You see them all drunk, if given the chance they will have your old ford falcon flipped over trying to get the whine our of the diff! It’s not a mystery. Maybe you should go and see for yourself.
These people who have this idealist vision of the Aboriginals being able to make their own sensible choices and able to solve their own problems all they need is more money. Well we have tried that for years. They get free housing all sorts of opportunities. We all have to pay sky high rents and get jobs on our raw abilities and merits to buy houses, Aboriginal people can get into the same job not through ability, but because the government offers to pay 12 months of wages if the employer takes them on. That is my yearly wage, and you know what, for most employers, it’s still not actually worth it and they won’t have a bar of it. Because they can not properly perform the job. This fantasy of Aboriginals can make all their own decisions they just need our money does not translate into reality. Time and time again this is shown to be the case. The more control you give them, the worse their predicament.
Look at the case of alcohol as I pointed out before European people who do drink do so in most cases without Abuse. This isn’t the case with Aboriginals, they go absolutely crazy on alcohol, and it has a very negative impact on them in general.
The statistics that you provided JM actually support what I am saying! Look at the graph for low risk drinking. Many more whites. Now look at the graph for under 24 years high risk drinking, roughly double the amount of Indigenous people in this category. Exactly what I was saying.
A lot of whites don’t drink just like a lot of Aboriginals. With whites it’s for health reasons, for Aboriginals it’s the enforcement of dry zones. The whites that do drink do so mostly in the low risk category.
The diagram above shows that across all age groups in the low risk group fewer Aboriginal people drink alcohol than non-Indigenous people. On average, 55% of the non-Indigenous people drink at low risk while only 36% Aboriginal people do.
In the risky group more under-24-year-old Aboriginal youth drink than non-Indigenous young people. In other age groups statistically the same number of people drink alcohol. This is also true for the high risk group, except for people over 35 years of age. Here, almost twice as many Indigenous people drink alcohol. The decline in the over-55-year-olds could be attributed to the lower life expectancy of Aboriginal people who on average die before they reach 60 years of age.
Read more: http://www.creativespirits.info/aboriginalculture/health/aboriginal-alcohol-consumption#toc0#ixzz2gkQURfxI
The first thing that they do when you go into Arnhem land is search you for Alcohol and drugs. Naturally people are compliant with this and understand why it is so important to keep alcohol out of the Aboriginal communities.
Have you ever seen a real full blooded Aboriginal JM? Just curious, because you seem to think that people are all the same and anyone can do anything. That’s a nice idealist vision, but it’s not the reality. They are a different race of people to Europeans. We have different cognitive abilities. That is the truth and that is why an Asian or Arab can come here as a refugee with nothing and in six months time they have saved for a reliable car and are striving to improve their situation. An Arab refugee from Afghanistan can study hard and get good marks at school and study medicine from a position of having nothing. But an Australian Aboriginal who has nothing that’s just his social surroundings apparently?
Obviously from my name I think that we have too many Asians and Arabs here, but that’s just the reality of it other races of people do not have the same struggle as Aboriginals in the modern way of life. If I was to give you reasons for it, you would no doubt call Racism. I just call it reality. I think good health and clean living should be the focus for the Indigenous.
What are your brilliant ideas JM , any fantasies? All white man’s fault? Give them even more money?
Who brought the grog in the first place and handed it out to Aboriginal people often in lieu of monetary wages?
White people.
So as JM says, I think it is time for you to GTFO.
Who brought their 4WDs, Tv’s, radios, outboard runabout boats that they use to hunt all the sea life in? Maybe we should restrict their hunting to traditional dug out canoes and spears. Actually that is a brilliant idea. Terrible white man, they can shun all things white if they like, no cars, no outboard runabouts, no TV’s, computers, internet. Everyone has a choice if they want to drink or not. This is partly education about health effects. Personally I don’t drink, and it’s my personal opinion that alcohol is the cause of many cases of cancer. That’s my opinion.
“You see them all drunk”
My article shows that the majority of Aborigines do not drink. Your source- “I know all Aborigines drinK to excess!”
“Maybe you should go and see for yourself. ”
I do. I live in Shepparton and work with multiple Aboriginal communities. And guess what-the communities don’t waste time asking for a full ancestry article before trying to assist them to get off the booze, and onto a job.
“These people who have this idealist vision of the Aboriginals being able to make their own sensible choices and able to solve their own problems all they need is more money. ”
I repeat-alcohol is, as you say, a problem for all people, Aboriginal and non-Aboriginal. Are you calling for white people to be banned from accessing their money? Yes or no?
“hey get free housing all sorts of opportunities.”
You volunteering to pay for rent in an Aboriginal community? It’d be cheaper.
“Aboriginal people can get into the same job not through ability”
Any examples of any non-Aboriginal people being overlooked for a mainstream job (ie not a job in the Aboriginal community) because they’re not Aboriginal? Any at all?
“Because they can not properly perform the job. ”
Oh, is this another genetic issue? Aborigines genetically can’t work? I’d better tell my coworkers that, seeing as they’ve been Aboriginal their entire life and working their job longer than I have
“This fantasy of Aboriginals can make all their own decisions they just need our money does not translate into reality.”
So, Aborigines should have not rights whatsoever? All their decisions should be made by others? I mean, would you get to choose where they work, who they married?
Are you wanting to start up slavery with Aborigines now?
“Time and time again this is shown to be the case. The more control you give them, the worse their predicament.”
You’ve never…met an Aboriginie have you. you’ve seen them, especially on tv, but never have met or spoken to any, have you?
“Look at the case of alcohol as I pointed out before European people who do drink do so in most cases without Abuse. ”
You’re denying Alcohol is a problem in non-Aboriginal communities now?
“The statistics that you provided JM actually support what I am saying!”
Are you denying the article shows that the majority of Aborigines drink less than non-Aboriginal people? This would tend to disprove your belief that ALL Aborigines drink to dangerous levels.
” With whites it’s for health reasons, for Aboriginals it’s the enforcement of dry zones.
The majority of Aborigines do not drink. Are you saying that the majority of Aborigines live in areas with enforced dry zones? You’ll need to prove that.
“The diagram above shows that across all age groups in the low risk group fewer Aboriginal people drink alcohol than non-Indigenous people. ”
The article also shows overall in all but three categories Aborigines drink far less than non-Aboriginal people do. The funny things you find out when you read the entire article.
“Have you ever seen a real full blooded Aboriginal JM?”
I’ve met many Aboriginal people, and work with them regularly. I had one as a CEO until recently. Now I didn’t ask them their entire background history-I tend not to do that to anyone-it’s a bit rude.
Also, funnily enough, he was a great CEO. No alcohol issues.
“That’s a nice idealist vision, but it’s not the reality”
Again, no evidence that what you say is reality. You’ve provided no evidence whatsoever. Not a little bit.
” We have different cognitive abilities. ”
Like this. You’ve got no proof of this. Anymore than I have proof that you’re attracted to animals. But it’s fun making evidence free accusations, isn’t it?
“But an Australian Aboriginal who has nothing that’s just his social surroundings apparently?”
You haven’t been able to prove otherwise. People in Aboriginal communities have poorer outcomes-doesn’t matter how much blood is “full blooded”-you’ve yet to provide ANY evidence to prove otherwise.
“Obviously from my name I think that we have too many Asians and Arabs here,”
Also obvious from your belief in eugenics which is based on…a car ride you went on apparently.
“If I was to give you reasons for it, you would no doubt call Racism. ”
I’d also call it evidence based BS. Since you have no evidence of anything you say.
“What are your brilliant ideas JM , any fantasies? All white man’s fault?”
Work with Aboriginal communities. They know their own problems, they want to fix them. Top down ordering, considering them sub human (As you have done), ignoring and dismissing their successes, their role models is not the way. There are great a wonderful Aboriginal communities resolving their own problems-you’d know that if you actually read the article and knew anything about
Aboriginal communities.
But you don’t.
“Everyone has a choice if they want to drink or not. ”
Except Aborigines, because no more foreign wants them to be slaves, without any free choices whatsoever. Isn’t that right?
Here, again, are the things you have consistently failed to provide any evidence to prove (But you say its obvious the proof is everywhere-just only you can see it-like that magic elf that tells you white people are superior):
1. I am talking on behalf of a lot of people in Australia, when I say we need to define people who don’t look Aboriginal as not Aboriginal.
2. People with majority aboriginal blood will have a greater likelihood of alcohol addiction, drug addiction, family violence and poor education outcomes, than someone with a lower rate of Aboriginal blood living in the same community, with the same culture and same socio-economic scale.
3. Aborigines are genetically more likely to be involved in alcohol, drugs, or family violence.
4. People who have majority Aboriginal blood have the worst outcomes.
5. Stopping Aboriginal people (Presumably everywhere) from having access to money actually works.
Evidence or get out. Evidence or prove your beliefs to be made up of racism and bullshit. Evidence or admit you know nothing.
Because so far, you’re full of shit and sawdust.
JM, you can direct quote me, with the comments and opinions that I make here, but don’t go extrapolating or making up your own assumptions as to what my opinions are. You can disagree with what I say, but don’t make up what you think my opinions are.
JM -“Work with Aboriginal communities. They know their own problems, they want to fix them.” and that’s about the extent of your ideas. Thanks for your contribution.
People currently do work with Aboriginal communities. One common trait is they are always putting their hand up for more money. Tax payer money.
The Aboriginals problem are not a secret or a mystery that only the Aboriginal people know about! We have statistics, we know all of the outcomes that show a “gap” between Indigenous (genetic Aboriginals and other people who Identify as Aboriginal ) and non Indigenous peoples.
Here is some things to consider, Why is there a “gap”?
Why can’t Aboriginal people fix this “gap”?
If we as humans are all the same and have the same cognitive abilities and all think the same, then they should have no troubles. Other people such as migrants can turn their situations around quite quickly. Maybe we should not give them any assistance at all? That would be fair. If we are all the same, then lets put us all on an equal playing field. If we are all the same, then we can expect equal outcomes and results from everyone ; )
No more foreign – ” We have different cognitive abilities. ”
JM- Like this. You’ve got no proof of this. Anymore than I have proof that you’re attracted to animals. But it’s fun making evidence free accusations, isn’t it?
One need only to look at the school performance of full blooded Aboriginal students or other measures of cognitive abilities such as psychometric tests such as IQ tests and non culture specific measures of IQ.
Compare a group such as full blooded Alaskan or Canadian Aboriginals on the same tests and they perform at a significantly higher level.
Now I have a psychology background of education and I see the limitations of IQ testing and other cognitive measures, so I only use them as a rough guide. There are many factors that influence the test and even identical twins who genetically are the same do not score the same, so I allow 10 points or so margin of error for significance. but when the difference is more like 30, 40 points there is a significant difference, and this is backed up by real world observation.
Believe it or don’t believe it, that’s the reality, as a group they do not perform well in modern day measures of cognitive performance such as schooling and secondary educations which are necessary for many jobs in this modern world. Provide me with any evidence that this isn’t the case JM.
No more Foreign – “Aboriginal people can get into the same job not through ability”
JM- “Any examples of any non-Aboriginal people being overlooked for a mainstream job (ie not a job in the Aboriginal community) because they’re not Aboriginal? Any at all?”
Nova Peris is the perfect example. Jullia Gillard decided that we needed a token Aboriginal in parliament and got the next best thing an Indian, actually a Sri Lankan. Her father is a full Indian, I mean with an East Indian Surname like Peris it shouldn’t come as a surprise. I guess you will just say evidence, evidence, well find out about her parents and tell me that they are not both Indian. I put that challenge to you. Prove that both her parents are in fact Aboriginals and not Indian. So Senator Trish Crossin (a non Indigenous) had to loose her job so that Nova Peris (a supposed Indigenous), someone with questionable credentials to be a senator could basically parachute into the position only for the fact that she is a non white.
That’s not just a non Indigenous being overlooked, that’s a non Indigenous losing a position to make room for an Indigenous (Indian) person!
Tell me that this is fair and purely objective.
JM- “I’ve met many Aboriginal people, and work with them regularly. I had one as a CEO until recently. Now I didn’t ask them their entire background history-I tend not to do that to anyone-it’s a bit rude.”
So he was not a full blooded aboriginal? Have you seen and met a full blooded Aboriginal or only people who are half and a Quarter aboriginal?
How do you extrapolate JM’s boss’s ancestry by what JM wrote?
You are really a racist, why not admit it.
“People currently do work with Aboriginal communities. One common trait is they are always putting their hand up for more money. ”
And you’d know that…how? Work with a lot of Aboriginal communities? Actually met with any community leaders?
Nope? Didn’t think so.
“The Aboriginals problem are not a secret or a mystery that only the Aboriginal people know about! ”
Never said they were. But it’s also true that it’s a problem the Aboriginal communities are aware of. And you want to remove all rights to them, creating a slave class because…according to you, Aboriginal people do not have cognitive abilities (Not according to acience, mind you, just according to you).
“Here is some things to consider, Why is there a “gap”?
Why can’t Aboriginal people fix this “gap”?”
Because we’ve got a couple of hundred years of repression, stigma, and lack of services. A couple of hundred years of no rights, no independence-the exact same thing you want to return to.
“If we as humans are all the same and have the same cognitive abilities and all think the same, then they should have no troubles. ”
Wait….so if anyone has problems now, anyone gets themselves into trouble, it’s because they were born with less cognitive abilities than others? You are really supporting the “born to rule” mentality-extrmeely literally.
“One need only to look at the school performance of full blooded Aboriginal students or other measures of cognitive abilities such as psychometric tests such as IQ tests and non culture specific measures of IQ. ”
Again, no evidence. But you promise you’ve read some, at some point, don’t remember where.
Evidence or get out.
“Now I have a psychology background of education and I see the limitations of IQ testing and other cognitive measures, so I only use them as a rough guide.”
As a person with ap ostgraduate diploma and Bachelor of Psychology, using an IQ test for anything other than bragging rights and testing of mental retardation (And even the later is extremely suspect), is unreliable.
“There are many factors that influence the test and even identical twins who genetically are the same do not score the same, so I allow 10 points or so margin of error for significance. ”
So you know the test is unreliable, so you just say that a degree of variance that oyu made up shoudl account for it.
You idiot. Seriously, I don’t need a test for it, you’re an idiot. The problems with IQ tests isn’t that identical people vary in testing, it’s that there is no one definition of what intelligence is, so how on earth can you have one realiable measurement to determine who has high intelligence?
That’s basic Psychology there, first year stuff, with most theories dating back to the 70’s at least (Gardner’s multiple intelligences for one, Sterberg’s central intelligence and key categories for another). If you had any sort of psychological background (Instead of something you made up on the internet), you’d know that.
More BS and wind from a BS Factory.
“when the difference is more like 30, 40 points there is a significant difference, and this is backed up by real world observation.”
Source for this, or get out.
“Provide me with any evidence that this isn’t the case JM.”
I ask for evidnec, you say “Prove me wrong”
If you had any actual understanding in psychology you would know it’s impossible to prove a negative. That’s why we don’t. If you make a claim, you back it up with evidence which supports it. It’s the entire scientific method.
But hey, if it’s easy to prove a negative, prove to me you haven’t murdered a child. Go on. I’ll wait.
” Jullia Gillard decided that we needed a token Aboriginal in parliament and got the next best thing an Indian, actually a Sri Lankan. Her father is a full Indian, I mean with an East Indian Surname like Peris it shouldn’t come as a surprise.”
Wait, your story has changed. To start out with, you’re saying Nova Peris is getting a job because she’s Aboriginal, overlooking other prospective candidates who aren’t. This was a complaint earlier, but now it’s she’s not aboriginal anywhere.
Then the story changes further. When you first started talking about Nova your entire basis in saying she wasn’t Aboriginal was that she looked Indian. Now you know that shes Sri Lankan, but also Indian (Which are apparently entirely the same)
Why the change, no more foreign? If you were so sure of her ancestry, why not say that earlier, instead of just saying “She looks indian”?
“I guess you will just say evidence, evidence, well find out about her parents and tell me that they are not both Indian. ”
No, that’s not how it works. You make extreme claims it is not up to everyone to prove you right. It’s up to yourself to prove yourself right. I thought you knew something about evidence, evidently not.
You say stuff like “Based on my own personal experience” like this is definitive, when anyone who has had any sort of relationship with anyone from the Aboriginal communities would have a different interpretation which would contradict your own. You say stuff like “I know there are studies” then present nonw. You say stuff like “Prove me wrong” when you, unless you’re completely stupid, know that proving a negative is not possible (Unless you’d like to now quickly prove to us all that you’re not a Nazi).
Let me make it clear-we all know why you haven’t provided any evidence to back up your wild and crazy claims. That is, of cours,e because you have none. If you had some evidence you would have it right now, posted repeatedly on this page. You would let us know repeatedly, happy to present it.
If you’d have evidence, I wouldn’t need to ask multiple times. I probably wouldn’t have had to ask once.
You got nothing. Not a damn thing.
You’re having difficulty accepting this because you always thought you knew about this stuff, but now you’re finding yourself with nothing to backup your claims. Which leaves a part of you wondering “Maybe I didn’t know what I thought I did” which is a shock to someone who has a pretend history in psychology. So you deny it, push for everyone to prove you wrong so that you can tell yourself “If they can’t prove me wrong then at least I know I’m right” so that you can forget that your entire belief system is based on nothing.
You got nothing. Nothing at all. You know it. I know it. Everyone knows it. No one is here reading about your posts tihkning “No more foreign certainly knows what he’s talking about-with such convincing claims as “I saw drunk Aborigines once so I know they’re all cognitively impaired”-the few that would be bothered to read your posts are all instead saying “Another internet racist, with beliefs that were thrown out after 1945, without the pretend evidence to back it up. When is the admin going to get rid of him”
Why keep denying it? You can just say, “I don’t have any evidence to back up anything I’ve said”-it would be a bit embarrassing, but as I don’t know you at all would it really effect you that much to admit you’ve got nothing to base your beliefs on. And everyone else here, as I said, know you’ve got nothing you’re basing your belief on.
The only person you’re lying to right now is yourself.
“That’s not just a non Indigenous being overlooked, that’s a non Indigenous losing a position to make room for an Indigenous (Indian) person!”
Nova won her seat, in an election where there was a wing against Labor generally. Nova was chosen because it was hoped she would help Labor keep a Senate seat, and particularly to regain votes from the Indigenous communities the party had lost in the recent NT election to the CLP.
Seems like she was the best person from the job. The fact that she won her senate seat would only support that further.
“So he was not a full blooded aboriginal? Have you seen and met a full blooded Aboriginal or only people who are half and a Quarter aboriginal?”
I have no idea about his ancestry. Do you regularly walk up to your boss and ask him “Could you give me your full family history so I can judge you based on your race?”
Have you actually ever met an Aboriginie, no more foreign, and had a conversation with them? I’ve asked you before and you seemed to be committed to ignore it. Seems like that explains a lot.
Oh, and again-you got nothing. You’ve got no evidence to back yourself up. You know it, I know it, and everyone else knows it.
And just a reminder of how little you know, here are the statements you claim to be fact, but refuse to back up with any evidence:
1. I am talking on behalf of a lot of people in Australia, when I say we need to define people who don’t look Aboriginal as not Aboriginal.
2. People with majority aboriginal blood will have a greater likelihood of alcohol addiction, drug addiction, family violence and poor education outcomes, than someone with a lower rate of Aboriginal blood living in the same community, with the same culture and same socio-economic scale.
3. Aborigines are genetically more likely to be involved in alcohol, drugs, or family violence.
4. People who have majority Aboriginal blood have the worst outcomes.
5. Stopping Aboriginal people (Presumably everywhere) from having access to money actually works.
6. Aborigines cannot process alcohol as efficiently as Europeans.
7. Aborigines suffer higher rates for nearly all types of cancer, due entirely to genetics.
8. Outside of dry zones, Aborigines abuse alcohol at a far higher level than the white population.
9. All Aborigines drink to excess.
10. Aborigines cannot properly perform a job
11. Aborigines have different cognitive abilities.
12. All problems in Aboriginal communities are entirely due to genetics and not in anyway caused by social effects.
13. Aborigines who have full blood score lowest in school performance, psychometric tests, and IQ tests, completely separate from any social infleunces. You also make it clear that Aborigines fall short of the mainstream IQ test within point range of 30-40 points. As the Average of an IQ test is 100, the scores you’ll need to prove the majority of Aborigines fall within to is between 60-70.
I’m being generous by the way. Because while 100 is the average, most people fall outside either side of it, with around 66% of the population falling between 85 and 115, meaning you’d need to prove that the majority of full blooded aborigines fall between 45-55 IQ points. Or I could be particularly cruel and say since 95% of the population fall between 70 and 130 (Two standard deviations), you’d need to prove that the majority of Aborigines fall within 30-40 IQ points.
But I’m nice. So you just need to prove that the majority of Aborigines have an IQ between 60-70 IQ points. Good luck with that.
And just a reminder of how much you are denying reality, here are all the questions you are unable to answer:
1. But why are you making this choice? Why is it the case that white men, and it’s almost always white men, are the ones saying who is or who isn’t an Aboriginie.
2. In your theory, Albert Einstein would be a shining celebration of the German people-something he might disagree with you on, don’t you think?
3. Now you’re saying Aborigines are a different species than white people? If not that is a truly idiotic and offensive statement to make.
4. Then why talk about British ethnicity? That was your own choice of words. Why do you continue to define Britain as an ethnicity when we’ve stated it doesn’t exist?
5. Wait, so if you’re Tongan, British, English, etc you can say you belong to that ethnicity (Your definition), but if you’re Aboriginie, only you, a white man, can say what a person’s ethnicity is, which will be based on their blood and who they look like.
Is this not a double standard?
6. I’ve seen alcohol do terrible things to white people too. Shall we ban all white people from having money?
7. You volunteering to pay for rent in an Aboriginal community? It’d be cheaper.
8. Any examples of any non-Aboriginal people being overlooked for a mainstream job (ie not a job in the Aboriginal community) because they’re not Aboriginal? Any at all? (Apparently a senate position is mainstream to you-not for me)
9. So, Aborigines should have not rights whatsoever? All their decisions should be made by others? I mean, would you get to choose where they work, who they married?
Are you wanting to start up slavery with Aborigines now?
10. You’ve never…met an Aboriginie have you. you’ve seen them, especially on tv, but never have met or spoken to any, have you?
11. You’re denying Alcohol is a problem in non-Aboriginal communities now?
12. “The statistics that you provided JM actually support what I am saying!”
Are you denying the article shows that the majority of Aborigines drink less than non-Aboriginal people? This would tend to disprove your belief that ALL Aborigines drink to dangerous levels.
No, you are right JM, full blooded Aboriginals perform well on IQ tests, they do well at school, it’s just those damn white people who with their “couple of hundred years of repression, stigma, and lack of services. A couple of hundred years of no rights, no independence”. whites give Abos no help at all! No services or help I tell ya. Bloody white people. You’re a joke JM, an absolute joke, an offensive one at that. I worked hard in my science degree with a psyc major. I have a particular interest in the anatomy and biological aspects of psychology. What a blatant evidence free claim that I make up my education, listen to yourself mate.
Maybe you are giving too much credit to social aspects and fairy theories and not enough respect to biology and anatomy. I do believe that intelligence is difficult to define, but I specified repeatedly that we were talking about cognitive abilities pertaining to the modern world. Things such as school and education performance.
If you are going to argue that full blooded Aboriginals do well at school you are a moron for all to see. We both know that is not the case.
You have no qualifications in anything. We have no evidence you are qualified for anything. The ability to read and write is something most people attain by the time they are in Year 10.
And like most racists you suffer from confirmation bias.
I fully expect you to quote the discredited race and intelligence theories of Hans Eysenck.
So let’s all have a laugh while you stumble through some “anatomy and biological” arguments to try and prop up your prejudice.
While you are at it, explain to me how we have managed to produce an impressive number of Indigenous graduates in fields like law and medicine seeing as how you have churned out a whole series of long-winded posts trying to prove otherwise. If Indigenous people were as “inferior” as you are strenuously trying to make out, that would not be possible.
Back in the 60s the number of women entering law and medicine was miniscule. Was it because they were intellectually inferior or perhaps lacking anatomically or physically?
That was the thinking of a lot of trogdolytes at the time. In fact Tony Abbott expressed such thoughts in recent times.
Definitely not. It was because of social and cultural barriers which prevented women from accessing tertiary study in a wide range of areas.
Fast forward to today. Women make up the majority of students in law and medicine and are equal in numbers in fields like science and engineering. And girls out-perform boys in final school exams.
What is to say the same will not be true of Indigenous people?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_Differences_in_Intelligence_(book)
There has been many studies all coming to similar conclusions in regards to races and intelligence. To suggest that all of these studies are wrong is a big call. Is that the call that you are making JM? We are all the same? It’s just discrimination and lack of services?
There have not been “many studies” at least not in the modern era.
IQ tests used in such studies have inbuilt cultural biases. Are you aware that Africans who seem to be on the receiving end of Lynn’s “research” had civilisations reaching back to pre-Egyptian times?
No of course you wouldn’t be.
“In a critical review of The Bell Curve, psychologist Leon Kamin faulted Lynn for disregarding scientific objectivity, misrepresenting data, and for racism.[63] Kamin argues that the studies of cognitive ability of Africans in Lynn’s meta-analysis cited by Herrnstein and Murray show strong cultural bias. Kamin also reproached Lynn for concocting IQ values from test scores that have no correlation to IQ.[64] Kamin also notes that Lynn excluded a study that found no difference in White and Black performance, and ignored the results of a study which showed Black scores were higher than White scores”
Do you know what a meta-analysis is? Do you know how intelligence is measured and what the latest theories are? JM and I know because we are trained in this area. You are not.
So if the South Asians are of superior intelligence you would then be happy for us to invite a large cohort of them to settle in Australia? I have no problems with that. They can join my South Asian relatives. I’d be happy for them to replace the knuckle-dragging bogots.
So explain to us if white people are so wonderfully gifted why in the US you have 60% of white people believing that the earth was created in seven days? Why do they have the Tea Party?
Still no evidence from no more foreign. Not a damn thing. Becuase you have nothing and everone knows it.
” I worked hard in my science degree with a psyc major”
Yet know nothing about IQ tests. I worked damn hard with an arts degree with a psych major, followed by a postgraduate diploma in psychology, and a masters in Social Work.
And yet you know nothing about IQ tests. Not a damn thing.
“What a blatant evidence free claim that I make up my education, listen to yourself mate. ”
What have I made up. I can name the Universities I had all my degrees at, and the year of completion.
“not enough respect to biology and anatomy.”
I’m basing my beliefs on research and data. You are basing your beliefs, according to you, on a car ride you went on once.
” I do believe that intelligence is difficult to define, but I specified repeatedly that we were talking about cognitive abilities pertaining to the modern world. ”
Then why use IQ tests to verify a result? Considering that IQ does not measure cognitive abilities but is meant to define Intelligence alone.
You’re changing your answer.
“If you are going to argue that full blooded Aboriginals do well at school you are a moron for all to see. We both know that is not the case.”
Come on! Where is this study showing a correlation between performance in school and the amount of Aboriginal blood a student has? Where is it?
It doesn’t exist. IF it did you’d be letting us know right now.
And at last, we have a source. At last.
And if you read the article you’d know a little bit about that source. But you didn’t read the article, did you?
The admin has pointed out some absolute lies that Lynn has previous put forward, but here are the criticisms of the book you apparently base everything you say on:
Most data points, which were used to judge an entire race or country came from carefully selected groups of recently arrived migrants. In one case in particular, the data point Lynn used to judge Mexicans came from IQ tests from a group of Spanish children in a home for the developmentally disabled.
Does that sound a little odd to you? I mena, if you wanted to judge the intelligence of a race, you’d not go for those who are developmentally disabled, would you?
Also in the same article, comparing the IQ of mixed race and white children adopted by German mothers, which found a neglible difference (.7), he changed the result of the mixed race children to account for an older test, then compared it to the German average of 100, rather than white children being adopted by German mothers (ie, eliminating the similar upbringing to minimise the number of external factors which could also effect the hypothesis). Does that seem fair?
In a follow up reference to that study, he “forgets” to mention that white people with low IQ studies left the later study, leading to an positive bias in white results. Don’t you think that’s particular to this topic?
“To suggest that all of these studies are wrong is a big call. Is that the call that you are making JM?
What studies? You have currently produced one book which uses a dodgy sample to prove its point. One study. That’s all. You haven’t proven anything. And the reason you haven’t is because you know you haven’t gotten anything.
But if you want studies, here are some studies for you:
Tizard et al (1972) studying Black, mixed race and white children raised in long stay residential nurseries-found no significant differences in 3 out of 4 tests.
Eyferth (1961)-which Lynn changed to get the result he wanted, but when originally ran, comparing white children and mixed race children adopted in germany found no significant difference in IQ results.
Witty and Jenkins (1936) compared a group of 63 black students with an IQ above 125 to a previous studies IQ tests on black people on the basis of white ancestry- and found no significant difference.
Moore (1986) – Compared the IQ testing of back and mixed race children adopted by either black or white middle class families and found that children raised by white families had a significantly higher IQ rate than those rasied by black families (Which tends against your belief that intelligence is entirely determined by blood)
Four studies. Plus one other source. 5 sources to back up my beliefs-you have presented an article about a book (Neither of which I suspect you have read), to back up your own beliefs.
And the reason you haven’t be able to do this is because you have no evidence to back up your belief.
“We are all the same? It’s just discrimination and lack of services?”
Are you denying that Aborigines in Aboriginal communities have a poorer access to health and educational services?
And again, here are the statements you claim to be fact, but refuse to back up with any evidence:
1. I am talking on behalf of a lot of people in Australia, when I say we need to define people who don’t look Aboriginal as not Aboriginal.
2. People with majority aboriginal blood will have a greater likelihood of alcohol addiction, drug addiction, family violence and poor education outcomes, than someone with a lower rate of Aboriginal blood living in the same community, with the same culture and same socio-economic scale.
3. Aborigines are genetically more likely to be involved in alcohol, drugs, or family violence.
4. People who have majority Aboriginal blood have the worst outcomes.
5. Stopping Aboriginal people (Presumably everywhere) from having access to money actually works.
6. Aborigines cannot process alcohol as efficiently as Europeans.
7. Aborigines suffer higher rates for nearly all types of cancer, due entirely to genetics.
8. Outside of dry zones, Aborigines abuse alcohol at a far higher level than the white population.
9. All Aborigines drink to excess.
10. Aborigines cannot properly perform a job
11. Aborigines have different cognitive abilities.
12. All problems in Aboriginal communities are entirely due to genetics and not in anyway caused by social effects.
13. Aborigines who have full blood score lowest in school performance, psychometric tests, and IQ tests, completely separate from any social infleunces. You also make it clear that Aborigines fall short of the mainstream IQ test within point range of 30-40 points. As the Average of an IQ test is 100, the scores you’ll need to prove the majority of Aborigines fall within to is between 60-70.
I’m being generous by the way. Because while 100 is the average, most people fall outside either side of it, with around 66% of the population falling between 85 and 115, meaning you’d need to prove that the majority of full blooded aborigines fall between 45-55 IQ points. Or I could be particularly cruel and say since 95% of the population fall between 70 and 130 (Two standard deviations), you’d need to prove that the majority of Aborigines fall within 30-40 IQ points.
But I’m nice. So you just need to prove that the majority of Aborigines have an IQ between 60-70 IQ points. Good luck with that.
And just a reminder of how much you are denying reality, here are all the questions you are unable to answer:
1. But why are you making this choice? Why is it the case that white men, and it’s almost always white men, are the ones saying who is or who isn’t an Aboriginie.
2. In your theory, Albert Einstein would be a shining celebration of the German people-something he might disagree with you on, don’t you think?
3. Now you’re saying Aborigines are a different species than white people? If not that is a truly idiotic and offensive statement to make.
4. Then why talk about British ethnicity? That was your own choice of words. Why do you continue to define Britain as an ethnicity when we’ve stated it doesn’t exist?
5. Wait, so if you’re Tongan, British, English, etc you can say you belong to that ethnicity (Your definition), but if you’re Aboriginie, only you, a white man, can say what a person’s ethnicity is, which will be based on their blood and who they look like.
Is this not a double standard?
6. I’ve seen alcohol do terrible things to white people too. Shall we ban all white people from having money?
7. You volunteering to pay for rent in an Aboriginal community? It’d be cheaper.
8. Any examples of any non-Aboriginal people being overlooked for a mainstream job (ie not a job in the Aboriginal community) because they’re not Aboriginal? Any at all? (Apparently a senate position is mainstream to you-not for me)
9. So, Aborigines should have not rights whatsoever? All their decisions should be made by others? I mean, would you get to choose where they work, who they married?
Are you wanting to start up slavery with Aborigines now?
10. You’ve never…met an Aboriginie have you. you’ve seen them, especially on tv, but never have met or spoken to any, have you?
11. You’re denying Alcohol is a problem in non-Aboriginal communities now?
12. “The statistics that you provided JM actually support what I am saying!”
Are you denying the article shows that the majority of Aborigines drink less than non-Aboriginal people? This would tend to disprove your belief that ALL Aborigines drink to dangerous levels.
13. “People currently do work with Aboriginal communities. One common trait is they are always putting their hand up for more money. ”
And you’d know that…how? Work with a lot of Aboriginal communities? Actually met with any community leaders?
14. Wait….so if anyone has problems now, anyone gets themselves into trouble, it’s because they were born with less cognitive abilities than others? You are really supporting the “born to rule” mentality-extrmeely literally.
15. Then the story changes further. When you first started talking about Nova your entire basis in saying she wasn’t Aboriginal was that she looked Indian. Now you know that shes Sri Lankan, but also Indian (Which are apparently entirely the same)
Why the change, no more foreign? If you were so sure of her ancestry, why not say that earlier, instead of just saying “She looks indian”?
16. I have no idea about his ancestry. Do you regularly walk up to your boss and ask him “Could you give me your full family history so I can judge you based on your race?”
Arts Degree. with pscy major plus social studies.
That would be the difference. Compared to science, where you actually understand about how the body works and it’s not about philosophy and airy bs and social studies spew. It’s all society’s fault. Nothing to do with a smaller cerebral cortex.
Mindmadeup, in response to you wanting me to admit that I am racist,
Sure, I’m a bit racist, I haven’t had the best experiences with people of different races in the work place, and in day to day life.
My Grandfather who’s father left from the port of Liverpool to help in Australia, was a lot more racist than I am. He was a supporter of Pauline Hanson and spoke in an open casual fashion about blackies and natives. He was also confused with the word “gay” as people use it today and called homosexuals “fairies” and said “stay away from them”. He also ate old fashioned English foods and owned a cat that lived for over 20 years which he gave a saucer of milk daily. People today talk about cats being lactose intollerant can’t give cats milk lol this cat lived 20 something years.
Consider that your people worked so hard to build and develop a country and then the government starts letting all these non white people from foreign places. Would you be too impressed with that, consider it fair?
It’s like we have gone from strong ties to Brtiain and a white Australia policy which was not even considered racist, it was considered normal! They were making the place specifically for Westerners. These days even Britain is not a White Country. It seems that white Countries have just become countries for every race. But the other countries are for themselves.
As for the Aboriginals well they did their thing and we did our thing. There was genuine interest in some of the things the natives did like how they hunted with boomerangs and spears. One tribe even shook hands by shaking penises! That’s interesting.
By the way Mindmadeup and JM, I have not evidence that you are qualified in anything.
Sure, I’m a bit racist, I haven’t had the best experiences with people of different races in the work place, and in day to day life.
My Grandfather who’s father left from the port of Liverpool to help in Australia, was a lot more racist than I am. He was a supporter of Pauline Hanson and spoke in an open casual fashion about blackies and natives. He was also confused with the word “gay” as people use it today and called homosexuals “fairies” and said “stay away from them”. He also ate old fashioned English foods and owned a cat that lived for over 20 years which he gave a saucer of milk daily. People today talk about cats being lactose intollerant can’t give cats milk lol this cat lived 20 something years.
Consider that your people worked so hard to build and develop a country and then the government starts letting all these non white people from foreign places. Would you be too impressed with that, consider it fair?
It’s like we have gone from strong ties to Brtiain and a white Australia policy which was not even considered racist, it was considered normal! They were making the place specifically for Westerners.
As for the Aboriginals well they did their thing and we did our thing. There was genuine interest in some of the things the natives did like how they hunted with boomerangs and spears. One tribe even shook hands by shaking penises! That’s interesting.
http://alfin2100.blogspot.com.au/2011/10/everybody-talks-about-low-iq-in.html
http://alfin2100.blogspot.com.au/2011/10/everybody-talks-about-low-iq-in.html
Why do Alakan native perform at a higher level than Australian Aboriginal natives?
If IQ tests were totally valid than Alaskan Natives should perform very similar to North East Asians, but we know that the Asian education system is very exam focussed, so the 10 points between Alaskans and North East Asians is about the allowance for cultural bias and practice at taking exams in the education system.
Even if we give the Aboriginals an extra 10 points to make up for this that still leaves them well behind at 72. This is not just cultural bias or exam practice.
“Compared to science, where you actually understand about how the body works and it’s not about philosophy and airy bs and social studies spew.”
You have never been inside a university for years. A Psychology course in the exact same when run in an arts degree or a science degree. In fact, the same students from Bachelor of Science, and Bachelor of Arts have classes together.
And we discuss different theories of intelligence.
Also-postgraduate diploma of psychology thnak you very much. I didn’t do that thesis for nothing.
“Sure, I’m a bit racist, I haven’t had the best experiences with people of different races in the work place, and in day to day life.”
Wait, are you saying….social experiences effect actions? Heresy! You’re a eugenics guy!
Or is it the case that social factors only effect white people?
“My Grandfather who’s father left from the port of Liverpool to help in Australia, was a lot more racist than I am.
Oh, so that makes it okay then: “Sure I’m racist, but someone’s more racist, so it’s okay! Just like if I killed one person, it would be okay because other people have killed more”
“Consider that your people worked so hard to build and develop a country and then the government starts letting all these non white people from foreign places. Would you be too impressed with that, consider it fair?”
Why is that a bad thing, to have mixed people? Especially considering you yourself have said how much immigrants fit into our soceity.
“It’s like we have gone from strong ties to Brtiain and a white Australia policy which was not even considered racist, it was considered normal!
At the time it wa considered okay, therefore it is okay now-right?
Just like at the time it was okay to beat left handed children until they use their right hand-why aren’t we doing that anymore?
“They were making the place specifically for Westerners. ”
Well, no, because the concept of Westerner didn’t exist. It was for English people-no Irish or Jews. Preferably no Russians either, or Greeks, or Italians. The idea of a united white Australia came about in hindsight-with white separatists like you saying “Well, we’ve lost out on stopping the Italians, let’s try and make the Asians feel unwelcome”
“It seems that white Countries have just become countries for every race. But the other countries are for themselves.”
Your definition of race (Surprise surprise) is incredibly out of date. Race doesn’t exist except as a social construct. You white separatists and eugenics people like to imagien there’s this united white race-ignoring the fact that white people have never been unified, nor have Asian people or African people. We do not share a language, a culture, or a way of life-white people are as diverse within white countries as they are between white countries and non white countries.
Japan is usually put forward as this pure culture that never mixed, ignoring the two facts that Japan has a quite large Korean population, and is realising they need to have migration to prevent people working until they’re 80. Now you’ll probably think “Koreans and Japanese are pretty much the same”-but you’d be wrong. Japanese and Koreans do not consider themselves in anyway unified, and never have.
Name this countries that don’t have any mixing. Please, let me know-I’d love to hear them.
“By the way Mindmadeup and JM, I have not evidence that you are qualified in anything.”
True. And we have no evidence of anything you’ve said ever. But admin and I know about research, we know about meta analyses, and we know you can’t prove a negative. All things you’re struggling to learn about.
Incidentally, I made an error intentionally earlier. A person with any current experience in psychology would have picked it up much earlier. It’s really interesting that you didn’t, and you still can’t now. And that’s because you don’t have any experience in psychology apart from reading books that no self respecting academic would ever consider as anything other than a door stop.
But you’ve brought a source now. Is it a journla article? A peer reviewed study? Something produced by someone who can be fact checked it wa published?
No, of course not. It’s a blog. Tell me, when you studied psychology, what credibility were blogs given? Tell me, please, how much credibility are blogs given in a psychological literature review?
Blogs, my dear no more foreign, are the last refuge of the desperate. Because absolutely anyone anywhere can write a blog. I could write one saying you like to dress up in women’s clothing-would that be convincing to you?
I presented a series of journal citations, and psychological experiments supporting the belief that there is no significant difference in IQ due to race. You presented a blog which has such comments as “We need a selective breeding program for Africa”-really unbiased stuff there!
Your psych degree-was it done on the honour system? Seriously-you could not have passed any course in anything using a blog as a research tool.
“Even if we give the Aboriginals an extra 10 points to make up for this that still leaves them well behind at 72. ”
Firstly, your source doesn’t state that score, or any score. Secondly, even if I believed you, and I don’t, 72 would be well within the normal range of the Iq test (95% of all people fall within 70-130 Iq points).
Thirdly, and most importantly, previously you said Aborigines consistently score between 30-40 points below the average white person. The average white person score is 100, therefore you are saying that Aboriginal IQ ranges between 60-70.
So even if your source was reliable, which its not, even if your source mentioned anything specific about Aboriginal IQ, which it didn’t, it still doesn’t support your claim that Aborigines have IQ results 30-40 points lower than white people.
So you were wrong when you said that, right? Are you going to admit you either made that statistic up, or were intentionally lying, or trying and deny that you’re changing your story?
Good luck with that.
And again, here are the statements you claim to be fact, but refuse to back up with any evidence:
1. I am talking on behalf of a lot of people in Australia, when I say we need to define people who don’t look Aboriginal as not Aboriginal.
2. People with majority aboriginal blood will have a greater likelihood of alcohol addiction, drug addiction, family violence and poor education outcomes, than someone with a lower rate of Aboriginal blood living in the same community, with the same culture and same socio-economic scale.
3. Aborigines are genetically more likely to be involved in alcohol, drugs, or family violence.
4. People who have majority Aboriginal blood have the worst outcomes.
5. Stopping Aboriginal people (Presumably everywhere) from having access to money actually works.
6. Aborigines cannot process alcohol as efficiently as Europeans.
7. Aborigines suffer higher rates for nearly all types of cancer, due entirely to genetics.
8. Outside of dry zones, Aborigines abuse alcohol at a far higher level than the white population.
9. All Aborigines drink to excess.
10. Aborigines cannot properly perform a job
11. Aborigines have different cognitive abilities.
12. All problems in Aboriginal communities are entirely due to genetics and not in anyway caused by social effects.
13. Aborigines who have full blood score lowest in school performance, psychometric tests, and IQ tests, completely separate from any social infleunces. You also make it clear that Aborigines fall short of the mainstream IQ test within point range of 30-40 points. As the Average of an IQ test is 100, the scores you’ll need to prove the majority of Aborigines fall within to is between 60-70.
I’m being generous by the way. Because while 100 is the average, most people fall outside either side of it, with around 66% of the population falling between 85 and 115, meaning you’d need to prove that the majority of full blooded aborigines fall between 45-55 IQ points. Or I could be particularly cruel and say since 95% of the population fall between 70 and 130 (Two standard deviations), you’d need to prove that the majority of Aborigines fall within 30-40 IQ points.
But I’m nice. So you just need to prove that the majority of Aborigines have an IQ between 60-70 IQ points. Good luck with that.
And just a reminder of how much you are denying reality, here are all the questions you are unable to answer:
1. But why are you making this choice? Why is it the case that white men, and it’s almost always white men, are the ones saying who is or who isn’t an Aboriginie.
2. In your theory, Albert Einstein would be a shining celebration of the German people-something he might disagree with you on, don’t you think?
3. Now you’re saying Aborigines are a different species than white people? If not that is a truly idiotic and offensive statement to make.
4. Then why talk about British ethnicity? That was your own choice of words. Why do you continue to define Britain as an ethnicity when we’ve stated it doesn’t exist?
5. Wait, so if you’re Tongan, British, English, etc you can say you belong to that ethnicity (Your definition), but if you’re Aboriginie, only you, a white man, can say what a person’s ethnicity is, which will be based on their blood and who they look like.
Is this not a double standard?
6. I’ve seen alcohol do terrible things to white people too. Shall we ban all white people from having money?
7. You volunteering to pay for rent in an Aboriginal community? It’d be cheaper.
8. Any examples of any non-Aboriginal people being overlooked for a mainstream job (ie not a job in the Aboriginal community) because they’re not Aboriginal? Any at all? (Apparently a senate position is mainstream to you-not for me)
9. So, Aborigines should have not rights whatsoever? All their decisions should be made by others? I mean, would you get to choose where they work, who they married?
Are you wanting to start up slavery with Aborigines now?
10. You’ve never…met an Aboriginie have you. you’ve seen them, especially on tv, but never have met or spoken to any, have you?
11. You’re denying Alcohol is a problem in non-Aboriginal communities now?
12. “The statistics that you provided JM actually support what I am saying!”
Are you denying the article shows that the majority of Aborigines drink less than non-Aboriginal people? This would tend to disprove your belief that ALL Aborigines drink to dangerous levels.
13. “People currently do work with Aboriginal communities. One common trait is they are always putting their hand up for more money. ”
And you’d know that…how? Work with a lot of Aboriginal communities? Actually met with any community leaders?
14. Wait….so if anyone has problems now, anyone gets themselves into trouble, it’s because they were born with less cognitive abilities than others? You are really supporting the “born to rule” mentality-extrmeely literally.
15. Then the story changes further. When you first started talking about Nova your entire basis in saying she wasn’t Aboriginal was that she looked Indian. Now you know that shes Sri Lankan, but also Indian (Which are apparently entirely the same)
Why the change, no more foreign? If you were so sure of her ancestry, why not say that earlier, instead of just saying “She looks indian”?
16. I have no idea about his ancestry. Do you regularly walk up to your boss and ask him “Could you give me your full family history so I can judge you based on your race?”
17. ” I do believe that intelligence is difficult to define, but I specified repeatedly that we were talking about cognitive abilities pertaining to the modern world. ”
Then why use IQ tests to verify a result? Considering that IQ does not measure cognitive abilities but is meant to define Intelligence alone.
18. “We are all the same? It’s just discrimination and lack of services?”
Are you denying that Aborigines in Aboriginal communities have a poorer access to health and educational services?
Something that came to me as well, no more foreign. Let’s follow your argument along-
Your belief is that Aborigines, completely separate to any social or educational factors, are less cognitively aware than white people. The Aboriginal community also has problems, leading to a gap in quality of life (Though interestingly enough, mostp eople when they talk about closing the gap intend to close it, whereas you seem to want to cement it in place by making Aborigines permanent slave citizens, devoid of all rights).
Anyway, your basis in your claim that all Aborigines are less cogntiviely able from birth to manage in the modern world are IQ tests you can’t find, probably because they;re invisible (No wonder the Aborigines score poorly on them!). Therefore, you say that white people, who you say have by and large higher IQ should take responsibility for all Aborigines’ decisions, and lives, presumably because you think white people know how to manage Aboriginal people better then Aboriginal people will ever do.
It’s an interesting belief, not exactly one I’ve never seen before. But I’ve never seen it taken to its natural conclusion. Because, as we all know, Asian people tend to score better on IQ tests than white people. If we are saying that poor IQ scores for Aborigines means that white people should take responsibility for all the aspects of life for Aboriginal people, surely it would make sense for Asian people in turn, to take responsibility for all the actions of white people.
Is that correct? Because I don’t see how, if we believe everything you say, your theory that Aboriginie people need to become legally second class citizens wouldn’t also be a justification for white people become legally second class citizens to Asians.
I mean, you might say that “We can manage our own problems” but as you know, the Aboriginal communities want to manage thier own problems too, and that’s not good enough for you. You might also say “We are able to manage our own lives” but Aboriginal communities say that too, and that’s not good enough for you. You might say “We have no problems in white communities” and that would be wrong (Health issues, obesity crisis, sexual assault and domestic violence, etc). So, if we were to follow your theory, it would mean we would also need to be devoid of our rights, and to become second class citizens as well.
I look forward to your response.
So JM you claim that there is no evidence or more specifically say that I have no evidence, despite providing links to several well known studies that white people score significantly better than Australian Aboriginals by a large margin, but you claim that Asians score better than whites and don’t provide any evidence for yourself.
From the studies that I provided links to (they may be blogs, but all the well know studies are referenced if you wish to check them in further detail)
South Asians perform much lower than whites. This is consistently shown. The only group shown to perform higher than whites is the North East Asians at 105. 5 points and if you break the European Group into North and South you find Northern Europeans perform higher by a significant margin. That is the only Asian group, and yes I give credit to this group, they show high cognitive abilities and make a good contribution in the modern world. Travel south in Asia and they are some of the most corrupt and backward places on Earth. These people have much lower IQ’s than whites.
The Alaskan Natives which are a North East Asian group score in the 90’s North East Asians 105 so 10 points is not genetic. Even allowing for this lack of exposure to exams and the nature of the tests, Australian Aboriginals still score well below Other groups. Other related groups such as highland PNG score similarly.
Answering your question- should Asians control whites? Obviously whites are more than capable, they were the ones who designed IQ tests and provided all of the technology in the modern world. So obviously no. Asians are capable and can take care of themselves and so are whites.
JM- In fact, the same students from Bachelor of Science, and Bachelor of Arts have classes together.
Yeah I had people from Arts degrees in some of my classes. They struggled in the compulsory biology and chemistry subjects which I found a breeze. Also struggled in the neuro pscy subjects and other biology and anatomical subjects. I looked at some of the philosopy stuff that they were doing and it did not interest me in the slightest. Social studies, I find quite uninteresting and useless also. I used to know a couple of social workers. Terrible people. Addicted to pot. It was always society has let these people down etc etc. Yeah, society.
“So JM you claim that there is no evidence or more specifically say that I have no evidence, despite providing links to several well known studies that white people score significantly better than Australian Aboriginals by a large margin,”
What sources? You have provided no source-a blog which is totally biased, and book that has been entirely dismissed. As for Aboriginal IQ tests, you have provided no sources at all. You just say “They exist-they totally exist”
Listen, you must be new to the internet. We can actually check what you wrote last time. You can’t just refuse to post evidence then say “Well, I did post stuff” and hope no one remembers you didn’t. We just have to scroll up.
” but you claim that Asians score better than whites and don’t provide any evidence for yourself.”
Fair enough. Well, in totally dismissed sutides I do not accept, but I suspect you would, the Bell Curve stated Asian have higher IQ’s than white people.
So is the Bell Curve full of crap, like I believe, or do you stand by these results?
“From the studies that I provided links to (they may be blogs, but all the well know studies are referenced if you wish to check them in further detail)”
The journal articles I presented citations too are quite well regarded and well known. You have chosen to ignore them in favour of a blog.
I repeat, when you studied psychology, what credibility were blogs given? Tell me, please, how much credibility are blogs given in a psychological literature review?
“South Asians perform much lower than whites.”
Source for that.
” This is consistently shown.”
In articles you can’t show. Because they’re invisible apparently. Damn you invisible IQ Tests!
“The only group shown to perform higher than whites is the North East Asians at 105. 5 points and if you break the European Group into North and South you find Northern Europeans perform higher by a significant margin.’
Ah, so you’re saying that southern europeans have less cognitive abilities then? Are southern europeans needing to lose thier rights then?
And again-source for that. You do not provide any sources for anything though, because you’ve got all crap.
But isn’t it amazing that the data which says that white people have lower IQ’s than Asian people amazingly (Using a study which apparently only you have seen-magic!) also says you’re still the most superior race. What a coincidence that such an article exists, that only you have seen. Why don’t you show it then?
” Travel south in Asia and they are some of the most corrupt and backward places on Earth. These people have much lower IQ’s than whites. ”
Says you, without any evidence to back up.
Again, why no evidence. Your two grand sources have been a blog article which didn’t say what you thought it did, and a wikipedia page you didn’t read in its entirety.
Why no sources? Is it because, as I have suggested, you have no sources. It’s all made up in your head?
“The Alaskan Natives which are a North East Asian group score in the 90′s North East Asians 105 so 10 points is not genetic.
No source for that.
“Even allowing for this lack of exposure to exams and the nature of the tests, Australian Aboriginals still score well below Other groups.”
Again, no source for that. Still waiting on it. Why can’t you provide any evidence? IS it because you’ve made it all up?
“Obviously whites are more than capable, they were the ones who designed IQ tests and provided all of the technology in the modern world”
But how do you know? I mean, if Aborigines don’t know what’s good for them because of their low IQ test scores, surely we wouldn’t know what’s good for us due to our comparatively low IQ test scores compared to Asian people.
I mean, if we weren’t capable-how would we know?
“Yeah I had people from Arts degrees in some of my classes. They struggled in the compulsory biology and chemistry subjects which I found a breeze.”
You have never been to University. A psychology degree, even the Bachelor of Psychology doesn’t have compulsory chemistry subjects, and definitely not compulsory biological studies. That is the case at the University of Melbourne, Monash University, Deakin University-which was your University which demanded, for people to do a Psychological degree, they have to also do biology and chemistry? Because I think it doesn’t exist.
Also, interesting that in the space of two posts you wnet from “Only science students study psychology” to “Oh yeah, there were some arts students, but they didn’t do well”-where did these magical arts students spring up from?
“Also struggled in the neuro pscy subjects and other biology and anatomical subjects”
Neuropsych is not a subject in a psychological degree at Monash, Melbourne or Deakin. Neither is anatomy.
” I looked at some of the philosopy stuff that they were doing and it did not interest me in the slightest. ”
Philosophy does not come into a psychological degree at Monash, Melbourne or Deakin. Your University is fake. It doesn’t exist.
Let me explain it to you, so you can incoporate the information I give you into your next version of your entirely fake story:
A person doing a psychology major in Science or Arts studies the exact same units. They do not need to do any science courses, or philosophy, but they can choose to do both.
Now if you’re going to say that arts students never achieve anything, I’d love to hear how your thesis is going. I mean, I’ve completed one, as a former arts student completing a postgraduate diploma, please tell me your thesis.
When was it done? What was your topic? Was it published anywhere? What degree was it a part of?
Or you could keep on digging that hole for yourself. See how far it goes.
And again, here are the statements you claim to be fact, but refuse to back up with any evidence:
1. I am talking on behalf of a lot of people in Australia, when I say we need to define people who don’t look Aboriginal as not Aboriginal.
2. People with majority aboriginal blood will have a greater likelihood of alcohol addiction, drug addiction, family violence and poor education outcomes, than someone with a lower rate of Aboriginal blood living in the same community, with the same culture and same socio-economic scale.
3. Aborigines are genetically more likely to be involved in alcohol, drugs, or family violence.
4. People who have majority Aboriginal blood have the worst outcomes.
5. Stopping Aboriginal people (Presumably everywhere) from having access to money actually works.
6. Aborigines cannot process alcohol as efficiently as Europeans.
7. Aborigines suffer higher rates for nearly all types of cancer, due entirely to genetics.
8. Outside of dry zones, Aborigines abuse alcohol at a far higher level than the white population.
9. All Aborigines drink to excess.
10. Aborigines cannot properly perform a job
11. Aborigines have different cognitive abilities.
12. All problems in Aboriginal communities are entirely due to genetics and not in anyway caused by social effects.
13. Aborigines who have full blood score lowest in school performance, psychometric tests, and IQ tests, completely separate from any social infleunces. You also make it clear that Aborigines fall short of the mainstream IQ test within point range of 30-40 points. As the Average of an IQ test is 100, the scores you’ll need to prove the majority of Aborigines fall within to is between 60-70.
I’m being generous by the way. Because while 100 is the average, most people fall outside either side of it, with around 66% of the population falling between 85 and 115, meaning you’d need to prove that the majority of full blooded aborigines fall between 45-55 IQ points. Or I could be particularly cruel and say since 95% of the population fall between 70 and 130 (Two standard deviations), you’d need to prove that the majority of Aborigines fall within 30-40 IQ points.
But I’m nice. So you just need to prove that the majority of Aborigines have an IQ between 60-70 IQ points. Good luck with that.
And just a reminder of how much you are denying reality, here are all the questions you are unable to answer:
1. But why are you making this choice? Why is it the case that white men, and it’s almost always white men, are the ones saying who is or who isn’t an Aboriginie.
2. In your theory, Albert Einstein would be a shining celebration of the German people-something he might disagree with you on, don’t you think?
3. Now you’re saying Aborigines are a different species than white people? If not that is a truly idiotic and offensive statement to make.
4. Then why talk about British ethnicity? That was your own choice of words. Why do you continue to define Britain as an ethnicity when we’ve stated it doesn’t exist?
5. Wait, so if you’re Tongan, British, English, etc you can say you belong to that ethnicity (Your definition), but if you’re Aboriginie, only you, a white man, can say what a person’s ethnicity is, which will be based on their blood and who they look like.
Is this not a double standard?
6. I’ve seen alcohol do terrible things to white people too. Shall we ban all white people from having money?
7. You volunteering to pay for rent in an Aboriginal community? It’d be cheaper.
8. Any examples of any non-Aboriginal people being overlooked for a mainstream job (ie not a job in the Aboriginal community) because they’re not Aboriginal? Any at all? (Apparently a senate position is mainstream to you-not for me)
9. So, Aborigines should have not rights whatsoever? All their decisions should be made by others? I mean, would you get to choose where they work, who they married?
Are you wanting to start up slavery with Aborigines now?
10. You’ve never…met an Aboriginie have you. you’ve seen them, especially on tv, but never have met or spoken to any, have you?
11. You’re denying Alcohol is a problem in non-Aboriginal communities now?
12. “The statistics that you provided JM actually support what I am saying!”
Are you denying the article shows that the majority of Aborigines drink less than non-Aboriginal people? This would tend to disprove your belief that ALL Aborigines drink to dangerous levels.
13. “People currently do work with Aboriginal communities. One common trait is they are always putting their hand up for more money. ”
And you’d know that…how? Work with a lot of Aboriginal communities? Actually met with any community leaders?
14. Wait….so if anyone has problems now, anyone gets themselves into trouble, it’s because they were born with less cognitive abilities than others? You are really supporting the “born to rule” mentality-extrmeely literally.
15. Then the story changes further. When you first started talking about Nova your entire basis in saying she wasn’t Aboriginal was that she looked Indian. Now you know that shes Sri Lankan, but also Indian (Which are apparently entirely the same)
Why the change, no more foreign? If you were so sure of her ancestry, why not say that earlier, instead of just saying “She looks indian”?
16. I have no idea about his ancestry. Do you regularly walk up to your boss and ask him “Could you give me your full family history so I can judge you based on your race?”
17. ” I do believe that intelligence is difficult to define, but I specified repeatedly that we were talking about cognitive abilities pertaining to the modern world. ”
Then why use IQ tests to verify a result? Considering that IQ does not measure cognitive abilities but is meant to define Intelligence alone.
18. “We are all the same? It’s just discrimination and lack of services?”
Are you denying that Aborigines in Aboriginal communities have a poorer access to health and educational services?
19. Wait, are you saying….social experiences effect actions? Heresy! You’re a eugenics guy!
Or is it the case that social factors only effect white people?
20. Why is that a bad thing, to have mixed people? Especially considering you yourself have said how much immigrants fit into our soceity.
21. At the time it wa considered okay, therefore it is okay now-right?
Just like at the time it was okay to beat left handed children until they use their right hand-why aren’t we doing that anymore?
22. Name this countries that don’t have any mixing. Please, let me know-I’d love to hear them.
23. Incidentally, I made an error intentionally earlier. A person with any current experience in psychology would have picked it up much earlier. It’s really interesting that you didn’t, and you still can’t now. And that’s because you don’t have any experience in psychology apart from reading books that no self respecting academic would ever consider as anything other than a door stop.
24. So even if your source was reliable, which its not, even if your source mentioned anything specific about Aboriginal IQ, which it didn’t, it still doesn’t support your claim that Aborigines have IQ results 30-40 points lower than white people.
So you were wrong when you said that, right? Are you going to admit you either made that statistic up, or were intentionally lying, or trying and deny that you’re changing your story?
JM, have you lost the plot? The blogs are not my sources of this information. I studied psychology in my BA science degree. I know all about APA format and referencing, did many an assignment writing in that style. The blog has a number of links to new research on cognitive abilities such as the research on brain volume and cognitive abilities in children. This is peer reviewed research, as are all the studies that have been done on Intelligence. A blog is a blog, yes, it is someone’s opinion I realize that! I’m saying there are studies referenced which if you bothered you could investigate further.
I was lucky at my university, the class I was in for a second year subject on psychometric testing, we had no black people in the class, so the teacher said something along the lines of, the research that was carried out in the past on IQ testing has yielded racial differences in IQ, but it’s too unethical to do any research like this today. A lot of it was done in America concerning Africans and non Africans and there is evidence of a lower IQ among some groups such as Africans and Australian Aboriginals, but this research is controversial, so we focus more on within race differences. Some environmental and genetic influence.
And so we go the different IQ tests to look at the Wais and the Wechsler, Ravens and Standford Binet or something along those lines. Anyway there is a few of the well known ones. It was some time ago now, but if it means proving to you my education, I will get out all my notes and give you some clear research that you can contest about in your predictable fashion.
I’m not going to tell you what year I started or finished or what university I went to, or my name. You can tell me that if you like, sure, not me. I will be known only as “no more foreign.
Maybe you can answer a few questions to see how much you remember JM. Have your text book ready ; ) Tell me about the By Stander Effect and the case study of the Murder of Kitty Genovese or the Theory of missattribution of arousal and the female experimenter on the suspension bridge. I would think things like that would be fairly memorable.
Also, what is this BS you are writing about “the bell curve”? That was a study published in the mid 90’s on IQ in the US. I do believe that only 5% of people scored under IQ 75 and 5% IQ over 125, so I have no idea where you get my (generous estimation allowing for cultural factors and exposure and familiarity with testing addition of 10 points) of full blooded IQ of 70 is right there with 90 % of the population? I know for a fact the results of “the Bell curve” was that a full 90% of people were between 75 and 125. Are you talking about The study known as “The Bell Curve” or some nameless graphical results you are referring to?
The way I see it, you believe that
1) we are all the same and all races are the same
or
2) races show differing abilities and this can be related to brain structure and anatomy.
I already know which line you take. I don’t think that it’s your honest opinion, but considering you are going to have mixed race children, it’s something you feel strongly about.
I am not having mixed-race children and I agree with JM. Not you, and your vanity posts look cut-and-paste to me, apart from being based on junk science.
Your anecdotal “lecturer” is pure invention. No academic would say what he/she allegedly said to a class of students. It is unethical as well as its premise having no factual base.
You can actually Google Bystander and Kitty Genovese. Anyone can do that, even pretend university alumni like yourself. They have nothing to do with your pet “race theories” by the way.
But how about telling us what university you supposedly went to and when you attended? Because without that information you are nothing more than a time-wasting troll with bizarre delusions and an inflated view of its own ability.
Not willing to? Thought so.
Actually JM, the very nature of a “bell curve” is that the majority of people are actually scoring around the mean, or at least in the first standard deviation either side of it. That is from 85 to 115 on most IQ tests. The full blooded Aboriginal IQ does not show significant overlap with these results.
I suspect someone like Nova Peris would score outside the predicted range for Indigenous Australians, but that is because she is not a full blooded Aboriginal, she is an Indian. Research on mixed race people shows that they tend to score in predictable intermediate groupings based on their racial contributions.
Jeez it must be boring being a racist. All you do day after day is rave and rant about your favourite hate subject.
“The blogs are not my sources of this information.”
Then why are they the only sources you are naming?
” I studied psychology in my BA science degree.”
Well, as a person with a postgraduate diploma in psychology, as well as a bachelor of arts majoring in psychology, my experience is longer than yours.
Fun fact-the first three years of psychological study teach you you know everything. Every year after that teaches you to question everything.
And again, my intentional error was pretty obvious for a person who allegedly studied psychology. It’s odd you still haven’t picked it up.
“I know all about APA format and referencing, did many an assignment writing in that style.”
Yet your sources are a wikipedia page which you did not read, and a blog. No mention of any jounrals.
“The blog has a number of links to new research on cognitive abilities such as the research on brain volume and cognitive abilities in children.”
But you didn’t mention those. You mentioned a right wing blog which you say has a link to something which is reliable.
Isn’t it a little odd that you directly linked and cited not these articles which are your “actual” sources, but a blog? It doesn’t look like the act of someone who actually has knowledge in the area, it looks like the actions of a guy who quickly googled “Aborigines have low IQ” and linked the first article he found, not bothering to read it.
I mean, you haven’t even mentioned the studies now. You just say they’re somewhere in the blog-but you won’t bother to actually name them.
” I’m saying there are studies referenced which if you bothered you could investigate further.”
Why should I bother when you clearly haven’t? Why should I spend more tiem trying to find articles to back up your own wild claims when you couldn’t be bothered mentioning them?
And now, we have a new evidence base. It’s a lecture at a University which cannot be named, using IQ tests such as the Standford Binet (Or something)-so very nice and imprecise.
Let’s just stop and take a journey through the types of evidence No More foreign, according to himself a science student, has been using:
Evidence 1-His own opinion “They don’t look Aboriginal-therefore they are not”
Evidence 2-His personal experience “Stats don’t matter. I went on a road trip, and saw Aborigines”
Evidence 3-Secret evidence which can’t be named “There are lots of studies. Lots. No I don’t have any here-why do you ask?”
Evidence 4-Demand evidence from everyone else “Go and research the topic and you’ll find out I’m right”
Evidence 5-Ask people to prove you wrong “Well, you haven’t been able to prove that Aborigines have never scored low on IQ tests, so….I’m right”
Evidence 6- Google everything and hope you find a source, not bothering to read it “I found an article saying “Aborigines have low IQ…..says idiots-I hope no one bothers to read it”
Evidence 7- Blogs
Evidence 8- Claim there are researched studies in the blogs which you for some reason didn’t cite.
And now,
Evidence 9- Intentionally vague story “The proof of all my claims occurred in a study, somewhere on the planet earth, on a day ending in “y”, probably in a university……are you believing me yet?”
No mor foreign, you claim to have research experience. You claim to have written a thesis. You claim to know about proper sources.
So why have you consistently failed to provide proper sources, and instead use the above completely unreliable sources?
” I will get out all my notes and give you some clear research that you can contest about in your predictable fashion.
No you won’t. You’ll just google and find out some article that you won’t bother to read.
“I’m not going to tell you what year I started or finished or what university I went to, or my name. ‘
I don’t need to know your name. Just need to know your University, so I know it exists. As it apparently has a psychological course where people are made to study anatomy, philosophy, and chemistry, I doubt it is.
You know no one can find out who you are by finding out your university (A university has thousands of people entering and leaving every year). The reason you don’t want to provide these details is that you never went to any University. You’ve made that whole story now.
“Maybe you can answer a few questions to see how much you remember JM”
Wait, you’re asking me to answer your questions now? If you hadn’t noticed, you have over 20 questions you’ve repeatedly ignored from me now.
“Tell me about the By Stander Effect and the case study of the Murder of Kitty Genovese ”
Kitty Genovese was a woman who was murdered outside the front of a set of apartments (Believe it was in New York-not sure on that though)-despite multiple witnessing hearing her cries, and calls for distress, no one did anything to help. The Bystander effect (Not the By stander effect) is the theory presuming that when in a large group people are less likely to to intervene to help another, thinking it’s someone else’s responsbility. There are other factods involved, such as likelihood the distress is real, and risk of harm to the witness also.
Is that a good enough summary? Nice googling you did there by the way.
As for the theory of misattribution of arousal (Nice spelling by the way)- that was not covered in my four years of study. From what I’ve read on it right now, it’s not that big a deal, whereas the intentional error I made was huge in Psychology, and you still can’t pick it up.
“Also, what is this BS you are writing about “the bell curve”? ”
Now, what you’re doing is taking two separate topics and merging it together.
The IQ test has a mean of 100, and a Standard deviation of 15, though this is changing over time(http://www.americanscientist.org/issues/feature/rising-scores-on-intelligence-tests/2). Therefore 95% of people fall within two standard deviations of the mean (That is€ what a Standard deviation is after all) ie 70-130. You’d know this if you knew anything about standard deviations, which you don’t.
My reference to the Bell Curve is that it stated that East Asians would score 106 on average, higher than white people. It also stated Jews score on average 113 (Which begs the questions-should they rule over us, as according to this study, they are the most intelligent, and therefore the most capable people in the modern world).
“I do believe that only 5% of people scored under IQ 75 and 5% IQ over 125, so I have no idea where you get my (generous estimation allowing for cultural factors and exposure and familiarity with testing addition of 10 points) of full blooded IQ of 70 is right there with 90 % of the population?
Again, a standard deviation of IQ is 15 points. Two standard deviations from the mean (95% of the population) would take us to 70 points.
Also, you never said Aborigines score above 0 apoints. Your claim was that Aborigines scores 30-40 points below white people, which at best, would mean they fall betwen 60-70 points. You have yet to prove that at any point.
Because it’ wrong. And you know it. And you have no idea how to admit that you’re wrong.
“we are all the same and all races are the same’
There is no such thing as race. We invented the construct to separate people. There is more genetic difference within the social construct of the race than there is between different races. That’s according to Venter and Collins from the National Institute of Health, following the mapping of the humen genome (Cited here:http://www.asc.upenn.edu/usr/ogandy/C45405%20resources/McCann%20race%20human%20genome.pdf). But keep on enjoying your blogs!
That’s my belief. And unlike yours, it’s based on research involving jounral articles and experiments not found on a website with a swastika on it.
Then we have your belief:
“2) races show differing abilities and this can be related to brain structure and anatomy.”
Which is based on…..what exactly? Another blog? An experiment you can’t tell us about?
” I don’t think that it’s your honest opinion, but considering you are going to have mixed race children, it’s something you feel strongly about.”
True, I’m going to have mixed race children., But according to your friend the Bell curve, my kids are actually going to be more intelligent thanks to the mixing.
Funny you like to talk about my private life yet you won’t even name the imaginary University you went to.
“Actually JM, the very nature of a “bell curve” is that the majority of people are actually scoring around the mean,”
Yes, I know, around 66% of the population. However, for a difference to be significant they would need to fall outside of two standard deviations (Which 95% of the population falls into)-that’s why we have the p value of less than 0.05 (Though even that is being ignored in favour of a p value of less than 0.01). Again, you’d know this if you had the basis understanding of psychology.
“at least in the first standard deviation either side of it. That is from 85 to 115 on most IQ tests. ”
So a standard Devation is 15 points, meaning two standard deviations would be 30 points each side of the mean. Which would mean 70-130.
Which is all very nice, but you still haven’t proven Aboriginals fall between 60-70 which is what you’ll need to do if your previous claim of “Aborigines score between 30-40 points less than white people” is to be backed up by evidence.
“I suspect someone like Nova Peris would score outside the predicted range for Indigenous Australians, but that is because she is not a full blooded Aboriginal, she is an Indian.”
Again, based on no evidence. Based on you looking at her and saying “You don’t look Aboriginal” How is that a reliable measure?
“Research on mixed race people shows that they tend to score in predictable intermediate groupings based on their racial contributions.’
Source for that. Nope? You’ve got none? Again-no sources?
http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2011/07/27/3279156.htm
Isolated endogamous populations tend to develop similar characteristics over time.
Our Indigenous people were aware of the deleterious effects of inbreeding hence had elaborate kinship and marriage practices designed to minimise this, including regular meetings with other clans to meet partners.
“”The point we’re trying to make is that the larger brains of high latitude humans doesn’t mean they’re smarter, it just means they have increased the size of brain areas dedicated to vision, and this has increased brain size overall,” says Pearce.”
So since the phenomenon of larger brains/better visual acuity can be seen across populations as diverse as the Sami, the indigenous Siberians, Inuit and Native Americans, it is not something attributable to “race”.
Strange you should post that, someone else posted it elsewhere.
So why not use one of your other IDs?
Your Mother
theanitbogan@gmail.com
60.229.252.130
IP Address: 60.229.252.130
ISP: Telstra Internet
Region: Sydney (AU)
Nicole
froggy_one@hotmail.com
60.229.38.136
IP Address: 60.229.38.136
ISP: Telstra Internet
Region: Dural (AU)
Jonah Hex
don’thaveoneyet
iamamature1@hotmail.com
60.225.24.84
IP Address: 60.225.24.84
ISP: Telstra Internet
Region: Rooty Hill (AU)
http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2011/07/27/3279156.htm
Apparently the larger brains are for visual things. No more foreign I have lived at Alice Springs which has a large Indigenous population which are for the most part Aboriginals with little European decent. These people are capable of achievement. Many are great artists, stock men, rangers, tour guides and skilled bushmen and often it’s the full blooded ones that cause the least trouble. Certainly the ones in the camps are not harming anyone. I will say that alcohol and drugs is their biggest problem, if it’s not alcohol it’s petrol or paint or drugs from truck drivers. You can not walk down the road without being asked for drugs from the Aboriginals I was quite shocked at this, but got used to it.
The murder rate in Alice Springs is quite high also, but it’s often between the Aboriginals so you just have to stay out of any fighting. The worst thing you can do is intervene as much as you think you can help. I saw all sorts of things in Alice Springs. Drunk and stoned Aboriginals lying on the road, incidents of domestic disputes and violence. They aren’t all like that though and some of them are pretty decent people if you give them the chance. To suggest that they are not capable of anything is not really true. It’s just a challenge to get them to follow rules and do the right thing. No more Foreign I suggest you go and live in a city with a large amount of Aboriginals and then you might understand the challenge more, and realise that they aren’t all incapable people or trouble makers. The full bloods in the camps don’t really disturb anyone.
No more Foreign the point I disagree with is that you claim that the aboriginal people are less capable. But yet you are ignoring or are ignorant of the many aboriginal people who make great contributions in this country. The link you post about brain size as I pointed out says repeatedly that brain size is not correlated with intelligence and that it is for visual processes.
You are using this in a round about way to suggest that some races are less intelligent when the research clearly indicates that this is not the purpose of the study.
Rather than try and prove that Aboriginals are less capable people, maybe you should go and meet some and you will find that some are actually quite regular people. Even if they do perform less well in education, shouldn’t the goal be to help them as much as possible rather than say they are not capable of anything?
Finally a reputable source. And true to form, no more foreign hasn’t read it.
I mean I’m sure he’s read the title, but he definitely hasn’t read the following lines in the article:
“The point we’re trying to make is that the larger brains of high latitude humans doesn’t mean they’re smarter, it just means they have increased the size of brain areas dedicated to vision, and this has increased brain size overall,” says Pearce.
“The findings could help to explain why Neanderthals and their ancestors may have had larger brains than us. Although possibly technically brainier, they were not necessarily any more intelligent.”
You really should actually read things before you post them as supports for your argument.
Woah step back everyone! You’re not aboriginal because anonymous person on the internet says so!
Sorry to break this to you, but one drop of aboriginal blood means its apart of your DNA forever. This isn’t mixing drinks, this is genetics. I’m sorry you don’t understand this.
After careful examination of No More Foreign’s arguments, combined with an exhaustive search of the databases at the Philipp Bouhler Universität Inzucht Schwachsinnig.
We can safely say that there is a 99.9% probability that he is related to these guys: http://www.whoateallthepies.tv/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/inbred.jpg
Why are the senseless and baseless ramblings of this No More Foreign being given oxygen? I know someone from Darwin is on par with the village idiot Bolt’s baseless nonsense.
Julia is a fantastic example to women in this country. #Strong #Articulate #Brave #Committed.
I saw the interview last night that she did with Anne Summers I was really impressed with how wonderfully she shared her personal experiences.
Miss Lou
x
I think that she needs to be given more credit than she has. She is most definitely a great example for Australian women, and she had a tough time taking on the leadership whilst her party was in government. I can respect her for that even though she did not get my vote.
I blame some of the Australian people for their remarks and unjustified comments aimed at Gillard when she was PM more than I do Abbott. It is the oppositions job to hold the government accountable for the job they are doing, essentially that is the role of the opposition leader, and I think it was hard for Abbott to comment sometimes without being seen as sexist. Certainly every prime minister is criticised by the opposition leader, so she is no different there. It’s just some of the Australian people that I find quite appalling with their treatment and lack of respect. She has paved the way for women to be able to perform in high roles in this country though.
A bit of warning next time please for those with sensitive stomachs before showing that collage of inbred looking sub-humans?
It would appear that the FB page JGWPMIAH has left the building.
Yep into the rubbish bin where it belongs 🙂