Muckraking the Dead

There has been ongoing concern in the Greater Sydney area about the critical shortage of appropriate sites for additional cemeteries.

Like other faith groups, the Muslim community wants to ensure that its deceased members can be buried respectfully and according to Muslim rites.

However you cannot go very far when the Muslim community raises an issue without falling over various flavours of Islamophobe pretending to be “concerned citizens”.

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Sue Guymer, who originated the Facebook petition, is one of these “concerned citizens”. She starts off promisingly enough by discussing the environment, which is the main, perhaps the only relevant issue when there is consideration of whether to permit cemeteries in greenfields areas.

But all is not as it seems for it looks like Sue Guymer is actually “Sue Guymer” complete with Bugs Bunny profile pic and four friends.

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And “Sue” is very enthusiastic about this Facebook page.

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Nice to see Islamophobia “concerned citizenry” is alive an well in the Greater North-West, complete with misused Eureka flag, posts about supposed events in Afghanistan and a dubious news report about a Muslim cemetery in Texas.

One fails to see the relevance to Sydney cemeteries in 2013, but bogots are strange creatures…

We are also mighty suspicious about “patriotic” “youth” groups misusing the Eureka flag, remembering the laughable Patriotic Youth League, and it seems our suspicions are not wrong – for on the spammy site Topix what do we find but a discussion forum full of neo-Nazi types complete with dumb neo-Nazi nicknames.

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The last post is a giggle. After all, has anyone ever seen Australia First?

And for the benefit of the pea-brain who calls itself “Anglo-Saxon-Celtic”, Windsor already has American fast food outlets, service stations and a major highway in the immediate vicinity. A bit late to be worried about “heritage”.

UPDATE

Sue Guymer joined us in the comments section, and here’s what she had to say about those “social and cultural changes

This will just be the start of a New Hawkesbury that will resemble the changes that have taken place in Blacktown, Auburn, Lakemba, Bankstown

and

No-one wants whats going on in those areas, brought to other areas – including most moderate Muslims. No one wants the bullshit of cronulla or the recent garbage that happened in Sydney.

162 thoughts on “Muckraking the Dead

  1. That’s just absolutely retarded… seriously they’re afraid of the dead??? They afraid that the Muslims are going to dig up their ancestors??

    Why didn’t all these concerned people stop Liverpool council from digging up the old cemetery to build those blocks of flats and the Westfields shopping centre??

  2. The English language doesn’t have enough curses to fully encompass the contempt I have for such wilful ignorance and stupidity.

  3. It is the numbers they are scared of, they think if there are plans for 10,000 plots, then it means ten thousand people in the area that are muslim. Did they not read the numbers of around 40 a year in burials? All cemeteries regardless plan for many years into the future, 10,000 is a normal number to plan for. They probably think there will be a sudden influx of foaming at the mouth Jihad’s flooding the area. Silly really, dead people are no threat to anyone or anything.

    • Perhaps Muslims plan where they’re going to live based on proximity not just to schools and public transport, but to appropriate burial sites? Eh? Bet you didn’t think of that. (Think of the convenience!)

        • Yeah, I was kidding. I’m just amusing myself with the idea of people moving somewhere for the proximity to a cemetery. Like the notion of a real estate advert saying “Location, location, location. Close to schools, public transport, and cemetery.”

          From what I’ve read the idea is for the cemetery to serve the greater region, because Rookwood and Liverpool have run out of space for Muslims. Sydney is running out of grave sites in general, but apparently of all the denominations, the Muslims have the greatest need. So they were considering sites at both Hawkesbury and Box Hill.

          (Factoids above from ‘Sustainable burials discussion paper: Frequently asked questions’ by Dept of Lands. Last sentence factoid from Hills News Sep 3 2012).

  4. The land site is solid sandstone in an Environmently sensitive and world heritage listed area. There will be leaching into the underground water tables (our home water supplies) and into our waterways, one being the last pristine waterway in the state of NSW. The area is Koala habbitat and this development will totally wipe out 100 acres of that habbitat. There are 146 Muslims in the Hawkesbury 45,000 Christians – so why does this area need this development ? We the rate payers in this region will be financially burdened with road improvements, public services for a development for NON Hawkesbury Rate payers….. the list goes on ……. And no I am NOT Islamophobic, my best dearest and closest friend of 40 years, family is Muslim, I love and respect them dearly – It should be also noted that they have lived in the Hawkesbury for 40 years and they don’t want it here either for the exact reasons that I have expressed. I hope this helps you all understand the situation a little better – By the way – Rookwood Cemetery has just given to the Muslim Community 6000 double depth plots in April 2012, so the Muslim plot shortage was sorted out then. The reason lodged on and for the DA. Australian Multicultural society balances the customs and practices of diverse groups within it’s fabric. This is done by inclusion rather than exclusion. The fact that this cemetery is for the Muslim Community only, constitutes Racial Discrimination as defined in the NSW Anti Discrimination Act 1977, Sec 7 Part 7, 1b.

    January 21 at 2:31pm · Edited · Like..

    Islamophobia Watch Australia Sue Guymer Thank you very much for posting and clarifying your position on this issue.

    January 21 at 9:55am · Unlike · 1

    It is drinking it and washing it that scares mem not different if it was Christian or a Pet Cemetery !
    We all know what road kill looks like – scrap some off the road, put in a class, mix with water and now – DRINK IT or Shower in it or wash your cloths in it – we dont have chemically treated town water here !

  5. I would have thought these dumb bigots would have been jerking themselves off senseless at the thought of 10000 dead Muslims… oh well, some people just can’t be pleased.

  6. For the record
    The comment “Gazette” 6th Dec – Is heavly editited – It is not in the context of what was said – like most media articles! – suggest you look further into this.
    There are “2” facebook petition pages – the Hawkesbury Youth one you refer to and another – petition against Muslim cemetery at blaxlands ridge
    Neither of these pages I can take credit for – sorry, neither of them are mine – Nor do I have anything to do with the administration of these pages.
    Mindmadeup or should we say Evan McHugh McAwesome – get your facts CORRECT before you go posting on facebook or off on your FALSE STATEMENT blog rants
    Activists and Extreme Fundamentalist are the real problem in society right across the world – They are not helping sort the problems in society, they are actually adding to the problems. So keep up the great work Evan ! Your Helping I’m sure !

  7. Justin, read the reasons above – they are Environmental reasons, or go and check out the documents to this DA on Hawkesbury Councils web site. Do your homework before you blog.
    Muslim is a Religion not a Race, so how can it be racist ?
    Australian Multicultural society balances the customs and practices of diverse groups within it’s fabric.
    This is done by inclusion rather than exclusion.
    The fact that this cemetery is for the Muslim Community only, constitutes Racial Discrimination as defined in the NSW Anti Discrimination Act 1977, Sec 7 Part 7, 1b.

  8. I suspect that to include a cemetery for one religion only may not constitute racial discrimination. Although having the skills and knowledge to get my shit together and scout the relevant databases for the relevant definitions and such… my gut instinct tells me that cemeteries would fall within the same common law definitions as churches and such. Gut instinct you question? Why the Hell not? After all, isn’t that what all you bogots rely on?

    • Cemeteries once approved are managed by trusts. The large older cemeteries and crematoria in the Sydney area such as Rookwood make provision for various denominations plus non-Christian groups such as Jews as well as a “General” group.

      It depends whether the Hawkesbury area is already sufficiently serviced by existing cemeteries for other (in this case Christian) burials.

      The majority of Christian/non-sectarian interments are cremations. So future provisions would be based on that fact.

      However, observant Muslims bury their dead.

      The problem with the cemetery proposal is not whether it is suitable on planning/environmental grounds. It is either suitable or not.

      The problem is the objections based on ignorant bigotry which have seen applications for developments by Muslim community groups overturned supposedly on “planning grounds” when such or similar developments if lodged by Christian groups (e.g. schools) would have (and in fact have been) approved.

      Amazing how bigots, who always like to jeer at their opponents as “hippies”” and “greenies” suddenly embrace environmental concerns when it suits them, such as when they fear the coming of “teh_musleems”. I wonder if they are prepared to support anti-land clearing or the banning of coal seam gas mining for instance – both of which are possible developments in their area.

      What are they going to do when the O’ Farrell Government releases hundreds of hectares of land for housing developments in the Hawkesbury area? And did they protest the resumption of agricultural land for development in the Pitt Town area?

      • Much the same way as the sight of a buhka makes them all suffragettes. And if any of you leso bitches out there disagree I’m gunna rape your arse!

  9. Laws were changed in australia with regards to cemeterys and the NSW Cemeteries Trust was born – is made up of all the religious denominations including Islam – This is how Rookwood Cemetery opened lot 10 and gave the Muslim community 6000 double depth plots and the Jewish Community 3000 single depth plots in April last year – Muslim Plot shortage was addressed and sorted out then.
    Like I said before, I don’t care if its a pet cemetery, we rely on bore water out here, solar power, river water etc – It is a World Heritage Environmentally Protected Area – the Location is not suitable – 100 acreas of Koala Habitat wiped out in an environmentally protected area – the last pristene river system in the state polluted and contaminated – The location is unsuitable, solid Sandstone – No Public transport, no mobile service, dirt windy access Rd, no power, no sewege – The location is unsuitable

  10. If it is all based on environmental concerns then why was the whole Muslim thing even brought to the fore? Even the Nazis cited environmental concerns sometimes.

  11. The applicant of the DA lodged into council, titled it “Muslim Community Cemetery” all submissions to any reference to the DA must have 1. the DA reference number 2. the reference of what the development is and 3. the developments address
    It has only every been used as the reference of whats titled by the developer and in that context only

  12. Another reason is the “reverse discrimination” by the Muslim Community. By making it Muslim Only, makes it an act of discrimination against all other Australians and this is against the NSW Discrimination Act 1977 – The Hawkesbury – over 60,000 people of which 45,000 Christian and only 146 Muslims
    Hawkesbury Rate payers will be finacially burdened with this development, road improvements, cost of supplying service etc and pretty much ALL Hawkesbury people would “not even be permitted to be buried there”.
    Why should Hawkesbury people be finacially burden for a development for NON Hawkesbury Rate payers.

      • Frankly I personally don’t care – I believe all of Australia should be cremation – better for health and disease reasons – would sort plot shortage issues and land space issues – if god almighty is that good to resurrect dirt – he has the power to resurrect ash.
        Why should I pay for something that is of no benefit to me – why should all the Hawkesbury people – most are christian, out of over 60,000 people only 146 are Muslim – no shortage in Hawkesbury in plots and Muslims are welcome in the Hawkesbury cemeteries

  13. You are wrong Mindmade up – it is Muslim Only – do your homework
    Or are you confusing this with the Halal housing development at Riverstone, recently in the press
    justin – issue is we don’t want the contamination of pathogens, bacteria and virus in the underground water – our borewater that supplies our homes – would you like to drink it ? Shower in it ? Wash your cloths in it ? Give it to your pets to drink ? water your Livestock with it? Disease & Health are the issues as well.
    Not to mention wiping out 100 acres of koala habitat, and the many other Environmental impacts. This is not an appropriate site for ANY Cemetery

  14. Oh Sue Guymer, you disingenuous ninny, you’re quoted in several places revealing the real reason you don’t want the cemetery, because you think it’ll encourage more Muslims to move in.

    Here, let me quote you from your comment at the ‘Planning Alerts’ website:

    “I believe allowing this development will bring about social and cultural changes to the Hawkesbury Region that will greatly impact on the very reasons I choose to live in the Hawkesbury. This will just be the start of a New Hawkesbury that will resemble the changes that have taken place in Blacktown, Auburn, Lakemba, Bankstown”.

    by Sue Guymer about 1 month ago

    It’s pretty obvious from comments like that that your ostensible concern for the environment and the Anti Discrimination Act are rationalisations to distract from the fact that you simply don’t want Muslims for neighbours. Or else why aren’t you protesting the ban on non-Catholics being buried in Catholic cemeteries? If the Anti Discrimination Act – as it applies to burial grounds – is a topic so dear to your heart, then why aren’t you worked-up about the Catholics too?

    Look Sue, if Muslims scare you, then that’s fine. Everyone has irrational fears of one kind of another, it’s part of being human. But at the very least, own that fear. Don’t bullshit us that your objection to this has anything to do with groundwater quality or the Anti Discrimination Act. And don’t lie to yourself about it either.

  15. There are large cemeteries in some rural and semi-rural areas including several old ones on the Central Coast of NSW which happens to sit over a large aquifer and which is home to poultry farms and fruit and vegetable growers.

    We hope the Central Coast crops and livestock are coping though no doubt the Hawkesbury yoof would tell us that they’d be safe because the burial plots are white Christian graves.

    :p

  16. Nerdypants – Muslims don’t scare me at all – my best dearest and closest friend of 40 years, family is Muslim, I love and respect them dearly – It should be also noted that they have lived in the Hawkesbury for 40 years and they don’t want it here either for the exact reasons that I have expressed. Including the one you have pointed out.
    No-one wants whats going on in those areas, brought to other areas – including most moderate Muslims. No one wants the bullshit of cronulla or the recent garbage that happened in Sydney.
    The single denomination Cemeterys you refer are the ones that have been here for many years – the Laws have changed love – get with the program.
    Frankly I dislike all religions, I feel they have alot to answer for! right through history and right around the world.
    Thanks to religion and paedophiles – I have one brother who sucided, another friend who suicide and 2 friends struggling with alchole and their demons.

    • I’m sorry to hear about your brother and friends. I’m also sorry that you are using what happened to them as an excuse to demonise people who had absolutely nothing to do with it. And of all the times to attack someone, having a go at them when they’re trying to bury their dead is pretty freaking low blow, wouldn’t you say?

      You say that Muslims don’t scare you, but you obviously are afraid. For starters, you seem to be afraid that the cemetery will encourage Muslims to move to your area en-masse. Which doesn’t make a lot of sense to me, because I’ve never heard of someone moving neighbourhoods to be closer to a cemetery, and even if they did I’m not sure how opening it up to non-Muslims would change that, but whatever. Let’s assume that you’re right, that Muslims are going to be moving to your neighbourhood once the cemetery opens … then so what? Your “best dearest and closest friend” has a Muslim family, whom you “love and respect”, so why would the Muslims moving to your neighbourhood be any different?

      I think you should spell it out for us. No more vague allusions to Cronulla or whatever – what do you literally think will happen if more Muslims move to your neighbourhood?

      PS “the [cemetery] Laws have changed” Citation needed? Because I’m pretty sure there are exemptions to the Anti Discrimination laws on religious grounds (e.g. hiring conditions), and there are Catholic cemeteries running in Australia.

  17. o.O You’re saying “disingenuous ninny” is an oxymoron? I guess it is a bit, considering that “disingenuous” usually means pretending to be dumb, and ninny is actually being dumb. Truth be told, I was going to call her a “disingenuous something-else”, but then I thought I shouldn’t be too rude. So. +1 for you Justin.

  18. Nerdypants, I really think my views on ALL of my objections to this development have been expressed enough, so without repeating them all, I suggest you go back to the top of this post and read it all again.
    NO CEMETERY OF ANY KIND IS SUITABLE FOR THE SITE AND LOCATION !
    BTW you were the one who brought up the Catholic’s and other religions – I expressed my views, and if your so good at researching, go and do your own.
    Justin, yes it was something of a personal nature, but a very good example of other “religious” atrocities. This was my meaning.
    I believe all cemeterys should be muli-denominatial – we all die, we all become the same dirt.
    However for health and disease reason, I believe cremation should be the only option for all – however, just my view, those with religious beliefs of resurrection into the never never would disagree

    • hi sue. I was ready to go into bat for you on environmental grounds, but you seem to have two contradicting arguments you’re presenting:

      1. no cemetery should be built there, regardless of denomination. I have no issues with muslims, I just don’t want a cemetery on that land.

      That’s a great argument, and if you had stuck with this one then I for one would be calling for this page to be removed.

      But you didn’t. Instead you presented argument 2:

      2. If a cemetery is built there, more muslims will turn up, changing our landscape, and leading to another cronulla riot.

      So which is it? Is the denomination not a factor (as in argument 1) or is it the main factor (as in argument two)? Don’t avoid the question, don’t tell someone to “research it yourself”, actually state clearly which of the above views is your true one.

      Sadly, you are definitely lying to some group, either the moderates or the crazy anti-islam groups in order to get support. And that means you either do have a problem with muslims in general (yes, I know about your friend, but bloody hell you have a problem with dead muslims being in your suburb!), or you are encouraging hatred of muslims for your own ends.

      Either way you need to apologise to your friend. And feel ashamed.

    • frankly if in fact the area is “heritage” then there is no need for all this bs coz it would’ve been denied straight from the start…

      • also has anyone noticed that her claim of “600 double plots” changed to “6000 double plots” at Rookwood??

        I’m there every weekend visiting my mother’s grave and I can swear it doesn’t look like 6000 plots…

        • Hi Craig,

          So you’re opposing the already approved plots at Rookwood, not the planned Islamic cemtary?

          What’s the reason for your objection?

    • I really think my views on ALL of my objections to this development have been expressed enough

      Hahaha, yeah, they have now. Up until now you had been doing a pretty good job of playing it straight. You were careful for the most part to stick to arguments about groundwater and the Anti Discrimination Act. But I think I have gotten you to say more than enough here to reveal your true motives, and this page is the third hit for “sue guymer cemetery” now. So if anyone really wants to know what your deal is, now they’ll find out.

      Regarding Catholic burial sites, I am definitely right that non-Catholics are not supposed to be buried there, because it’s in their Canon Law. The Catholics do make exceptions for non-Catholic spouses and family members, but because they consider it “consecrated” ground, the burial of someone who is e.g. excommunicated will “desecrate” that ground (and I don’t think it gets much more “exclusive” than that).

      For proof you can refer to this, this, this and basically any other Google result for ‘burial non-catholic consecrated grounds’ or similar. You’ll note that the Catholic Encyclopaedia itself admits that:

      … at the present day in almost every part of the world the prescriptions of the canon law regarding burial are in conflict with secular legislation in more than one particular.

      But you’ll also note that everyone is kind of ignoring this issue. And do you know why? Because most people are not arseholes.

      Because we understand that people lean on their faith when they lose their loved ones, because it’s not that big a deal if the Catholics or the Muslims or whoever want a piece of special ground to bury their dead, and because you’d have to be a real arsehole to try and make life difficult for someone when they’re grieving. Think about that.

      • The only details forensics will tell you about human remains is their gender, age at death and imprecise data about their geographic origins.

        No one can tell you the religious beliefs of a skeleton out of its burial context.

        How many people have unknowingly built their homes, grazed their livestock or grown their food on or near the graves of Indigenous people or early European settlers for that matter ?

  19. JM – 2- is not really a factor for me, but would be for many here. I don’t want the landscape and demographics to change here, because I live here for the environment, landscape and demographics – I’m in the Wilderness Region of the Hawkesbury – I don’t have to go to town that often, so wouldn’t impact on me like it would on others.
    1 – Environment is my main concern, I live in the Wilderness region of the Hawkesbury where this is planned for. Also traffic congestion, this is already a major issue here, the greater community has already demanded no further development north west of the rivers until that issue is sorted. This cemetery will be north west of the rivers, therefore compounding these issues even further.

    We are all Australians, Cemeteries should be multi-denomination, and state planned, managed under the NSW Cemeteries Trust, by the board representing all denominations.

    I have discussed all my views and concerns with my friend very openly and have nothing to apologise for. ps: yes she is real !

    Mindmadeup – glad you researched cemetery’s – no shortage in the Hawkesbury and yes we do have cemeteries that cover other denominations within them, muslims are more than welcome. Suggestions of more suitable sites in the Hawkesbury has also as I understand been put forward in some submissions.
    You talk of coal Seam Gas CSG and wonder if we would be so passionate about the environment – Currently the waste products of this is been trucked from Sydney up the putty rd and dumped in ponds very close to the Wollemi Pine stand – there was no DA submitted for these ponds and no DA approval process- community was kept in the dark – gotta love the Government- we have been trying to stop it in the Putty Township area for well over a year.
    Recently the fluid from these holding ponds were used by the RFS to put out a bushfire that was close by, after they said they would not use it, when fronted. EPA is now going after the property owner where the fire was for contamination.Yep thats fair !
    By all means – come and help fight the CSG – definately need a hand with it.

    • /I don’t want the … demographics to change here, because I live here for the … demographics

      This ‘demographics’ issue is really puzzling me. Can you spell it out for us? Are you actually labouring under the mistaken impression that having a Muslim cemetery in Hawkesbury will encourage Muslims to buy houses in Hawkesbury? Or is it the mere presence of Muslims, visiting to attend funerals, that bothers you? Because I’m pretty sure visitors aren’t counted as ‘demographics’….

    • “JM – 2- is not really a factor for me, but would be for many here. ”

      So, you don’t have a problem with it being a Muslim cemetary, but as people who would otherwise not care will support you in blocking the cemetary because it’s a Muslim cemetery, you’ve chosen to emplify that in some statements.

      After all, if you don’t care what denomination of people will be buried there, why make the following comments:

      “No-one wants whats going on in those areas, brought to other areas – including most moderate Muslims. No one wants the bullshit of cronulla or the recent garbage that happened in Sydney.”

      “I believe allowing this development will bring about social and cultural changes to the Hawkesbury Region that will greatly impact on the very reasons I choose to live in the Hawkesbury. This will just be the start of a New Hawkesbury that will resemble the changes that have taken place in Blacktown, Auburn, Lakemba, Bankstown”.

      If it doesn’t matter to you that this cemetery is a Muslim cemetery-why make the above comments? Is it just that you want to win over some anti Muslim groups so you have more support (In which case you are encouraging hatred of Muslims, including your alleged friends and should apologise), or do you have an actually gripe with Muslims that you try to hide with a token friend?

      I really want to know how you can make those sort of statements, yet still say that religion is not a factor in your opposition.

      “because I live here for the environment, landscape and demographics ”

      What does that mean? What do you mean when you say “I live here for the demographics”?
      Because, quite frankly, if you never want demographics to change, your suburb will die. The problem with wanting a demographic of a suburb to stay the exact way it always has is that people don’t stay that way. Young people don’t stay in the suburb they were born into unless they have no choice-usually getting out for University or work. They might come back later, but they just as likely will find a new life elsewhere. With comparatively few young people staying on, whose left? Old people. A demographic can’t stay the same with just old people, because they die.

      To give an example from where I live, Shepparton, and compare it to a nearby Benalla. Shepparton had the same problem a lot of non-capital cities do-which is that the kids who can get out after High School do, and few come back. Without young people to work in the local industries and services, the industries were unable to support themselves. Then they accepted a large number of refugees, who worked in the local industries and services, and helped the town continue to prosper. Now, Shepparton has not become a busy city by any stretch of the imagination, and if, for instance, you want to get a meal after 3pm on a Sunday, forget about it. But it’s not a ghost town either. But by changing its demographics it has survived.

      Compare it to say Benalla, which did not accept the demographic change, and is now mostly elderly people. There is not money going into business. There is not sufficient funding for government services. Benalla is on its way to being ghost town now. It has not enough strong young people to work in the local industries or services, therefore not enough money coming into to create other services. People don’t go there for holidays, and it’s not a major highway town that could help it survive.

      In 10 years time Shepparton will be very very strong-with a healthy population of a diverse group of people, and industries profiting and contributing back into society. Benalla will still be on the map, but I don’t know if it will continue as a town for much longer.

      “We are all Australians, Cemeteries should be multi-denomination, and state planned, managed under the NSW Cemeteries Trust, by the board representing all denominations. ”

      Why? After all, we allow recognition of separate traditions for all births, marriages, so what’s the problem with recognising a separate tradition for death?

      I see you want everyone to be cremated-and that’s my own personal choice too. But if you are telling me I have to follow your choice, so that I cannot choose the way my body is despatched after I die, I tell you why are you taking away my choice?

      “I have discussed all my views and concerns with my friend very openly and have nothing to apologise for. ps: yes she is real !”

      Really? How did she respond when you made the above comments regarding your suburb turning into Cronulla, Blacktown, etc? Did you tell her you didn’t have a problem with her, just all those other Muslims at other places that owuld wreck your suburb by being dead there? Or did you in turn say you were trying to win over allies to the cause by encouraging anti-Islamic sentiment, the same sort of sentiment which could potential hurt her in the future?

      • I have promoted the environmental issues and concerns also the final planning submission date expiry – I have only done this on facebook on my own page, and both of the petition pages.
        I have not emplified Muslim to serve any kind of adgenda.I have not mentioned Muslim in any other context than what the developer has stated the development as on the DA and in that reference and context only !! Theaddress of the development and the DA reference number must be on the submission, along with what the Development title is Listed by the Applicant on the application – which is required by council for ANY submission on ANY DA

        In any religion you have extremist and what I would call moderates, my girlfriends family come from a race and cultural background that I suppose could be called moderate – eliments in the regions referred to are extreme causing social issues. My friends family are also very concerned that those issue would come to the Hawkesbury, and they dont want that either, they have had good lives here for 40yrs, welcomed, accepted and embraced, extreme elliments would change that, even for them.

        When I say Cemetries should be multi denominational – my meaning is not that all are buried next to each other as such – My meaning is that they should cover all denominations in there own areas, such as Rookwood does – but the cemetery itself should be for All Denominations – this DA for this cemetery is for Muslim only – hence discrimination and against the NSW Discrimination act – I wont support that, nor does my friends family as this only supports discrimination to continue in our society.

        Re cremation – I wouldn’t tale your choice or anyones choice from them, my meaning was – it would solve alot of problems

        I take on board your country town examples, and good points they are, its not the same for the Hawkesbury though, only 90km from Sydney, most who live here travel to Sydney for work, that is if they don’t work locally. We are lucky here to have that privilege.

        • “I have not emplified Muslim to serve any kind of adgenda.I have not mentioned Muslim in any other context than what the developer has stated the development as on the DA and in that reference and context only !!”

          Except you have mentioned issues you have with Muslims here, and also on the Planning Alert website. I’m also sure you would have made similar comments to supporters off the record, and generally spread this along.

          “In any religion you have extremist and what I would call moderates, ”

          True. Quick question, are you going to be trying to prevent any other members of any other religion from entering your suburb because some may be extremists, and therefore all should be stopped? Or will only Muslims ever get that treatment?

          Hell, you pretty much should ban everyone from every entering your suburb then, because all ideologies can be extremists (There is such a thing as extremist Atheists even!).

          “my girlfriends family come from a race and cultural background that I suppose could be called moderate”

          I have heard of extremist religions, extremist cultures even, but this is the first time I’ve heard of extremist races. Please, tell me which races are moderate and which races are extreme.

          ” eliments in the regions referred to are extreme causing social issues. ”

          Okay, again, so to stop extremists from coming in, all Muslims must be prevented from entering. Is that right? Does that sound fair to you? Again, I don’t think you’re going to be stopping all other religions from entering in fear that some could be extremists.

          And what social issues are they going to bring? Are there going to be forced conversions in the streets? What?

          “its not the same for the Hawkesbury though, only 90km from Sydney, most who live here travel to Sydney for work, that is if they don’t work locally. ”

          Then guess what? You’re still going to have to deal with demographic change-or become so ruled laden, you’d become like South Africa. Because when people can’t afford property close to the city, they move further out until they can find something they can afford. Eventually, that’s going to hit you. And there’s no telling which groups will enter.

          What will your response be then? If Muslims wanted to buy some houses to live in then-what would you do? Accept demographic change, which everyone has to, or essentially say “People of certain religions should not be allowed to buy property here”?

        • You seem to only be interested in the social Issues that have been raised over the development application.

          As I keep stating – My primary concerns are the Environmental Issues and the impact of this development Environmentally ! This is what will directly affect me !

          I will not support or tolerate Discrimination of any kind within our society !
          This development constitues dicrimination as definded in the NSW Anti Discrimination Act 1977, Sec 7 part7, 1b

  20. Nerdypants your really dogmatic arnt you, you must be a nightmare to live with. You wont be happy until “you get a person to say what “YOU” want them to say”. Sorry, I’m not going to accommodate you.
    I think I have been very clear on answering JM on both point 1 & point 2
    You dont get it, the infrastructure and the services are NOT even here for visitors to attend funnerals – Muslim burial is men only, females and family members would be visiting at other times after the burial, with NO public services to get them there to visit.
    These are just other problems also with the site location, ontop of the ones already stated.

    • Believe it or not Sue, I’ve actually got benevolent motives for bothering you about this particular ‘demographic’ concern of yours. Because I think I can allay your fears about hordes of Muslims being drawn to your neighbourhood because of a cemetery.

      Did you know that Sydney is going to run out of crown grave sites in 2035? There is a serious shortage of new centrally located burial land, so now the only options left are to use use existing space more efficiently, and to make new cemeteries on the outskirts. Did you know that cemeteries in Sydney don’t just serve their local area? Rookwood currently serves one quarter of the Sydney region? That includes Muslims, who are brought from all over in Sydney get buried at these sites. You yourself noted that the Muslim population in Hawkesbury is really low compared to the number of sites planned. Did it occur to you that the reason for that is not because 10,000 Muslims are planning to move into Hawkesbury in the next few years, but because the Hawkesbury cemetery isn’t just to serve Hawkesbury Muslims but Muslims all over Sydney? Such as those who would have gone to the nearest Riverstone were it not running out of space?

      And Muslims are not going to start moving to Hawkesbury to be closer to the cemetery. That’s absurd. The most you’ll see of them is when they’re visiting their dead relatives. And gravesite visitors aren’t normally in the mood to start Cronulla-style riots, okay?

      So relax. The Muslims aren’t moving in next door, they just want to bury their dead. And if you can’t even allow them to visit your neighbourhood for fear of changing the “demographics” then, well, I think that makes you a bit of an arsehole, and bigoted one at that.

      Further reading: http://www.lpma.nsw.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0019/74125/10214_Burial_Space_for_web.pdf
      http://www.lpma.nsw.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0003/155946/Sustainable_Burials_FAQ_fs.pdf

      PS: I think you should acknowledge your error regarding the Catholic cemeteries, that it is true that non-Catholics are not allowed to be buried in Catholic cemeteries. Or you could keep being intellectually dishonest about it, your choice.

    • Believe it or not Sue, I’ve actually got benevolent motives for bothering you about this particular ‘demographic’ concern of yours. Because I think I can do you a favour, and allay your fears about Muslim hordes moving to your neighbourhood. Even if the cemetery gets built, it’s not going to happen.

      Did you know that Sydney is going to run out of crown grave sites in 2035? There is a serious shortage of new centrally located burial land, so now the only options left are to use use existing space more efficiently and to make new cemeteries on the outskirts. That is what is driving this proposal.

      Did you know that cemeteries in Sydney don’t just serve their local area? Rookwood for example currently serves one quarter of the Sydney region. That includes Muslims, who are brought from all over in Sydney to be buried at these few and dwindling sites. You yourself noted that the Muslim population in Hawkesbury is really low compared to the number of sites planned. Did it occur to you that the reason for that is not because 10,000 Muslims are planning to move into Hawkesbury in the next few years, but because the Hawkesbury cemetery isn’t just to serve Hawkesbury Muslims but Muslims from all over Sydney? Such as those who would have gone to the nearest Riverstone cemetery were it not running out of space?

      And Muslims are not going to start moving to Hawkesbury to be closer to the cemetery. That’s absurd. The size of the cemetery is not a sign of an impending Muslim invasion of your little white township. The most you’ll see of them is when they’re visiting their dead relatives, and gravesite visitors aren’t usually in the mood to start Cronulla-style riots, okay?

      So relax. The Muslims aren’t moving in next door, they just want to bury their dead nearby because there’s nowhere else to put them. And really, if you can’t even allow them to visit your neighbourhood for fear of changing the “demographics” then, well, that makes you a bigot.

      Further reading:
      http://www.lpma.nsw.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0019/74125/10214_Burial_Space_for_web.pdf
      http://www.lpma.nsw.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0003/155946/Sustainable_Burials_FAQ_fs.pdf

      PS: I think you should acknowledge your error regarding the Catholic cemeteries, that it is true that non-Catholics are not allowed to be buried in Catholic cemeteries. Or you could keep being intellectually dishonest about it, your choice.

  21. You are just a raving nut Nerdypants
    No shortage anymore – sorted out April 2012 – do your research and also how the cemeteries trust will be dealing with the future, government plans to reuse old plots over 50 years old.
    Cemeteries have different sections for each denomination -of course non catholics cant be buried with catholic’s and non muslims cant be buried with muslims etc either your a moron or you think I am, never said they could be. I believe I said
    “The single denomination Cemeterys you refer are the ones that have been here for many years – the Laws have changed love – get with the program.
    Frankly I dislike all religions, I feel they have alot to answer for! right through history and right around the world.”
    I believe I also said;
    “We are all Australians, Cemeteries should be multi-denomination, and state planned, managed under the NSW Cemeteries Trust, by the board representing all denominations.”
    The entire cemetery proposal is a muslim only proposal. Look it could be a bloody catholic one or a pet cemetery – the site location is wrong, and I believe I stated;
    “issue is we don’t want the contamination of pathogens, bacteria and virus in the underground water – our borewater that supplies our homes – would you like to drink it ? Shower in it ? Wash your cloths in it ? Give it to your pets to drink ? water your Livestock with it? Disease & Health are the issues as well.
    Not to mention wiping out 100 acres of koala habitat, and the many other Environmental impacts. This is not an appropriate site for ANY Cemetery”
    You don’t have all the facts, thats obvious otherwise you would know about 6000 double depth plots just given to the Muslim community at rookwood (lot 10) April 2012 – Goverment explain it quite well in their media release
    The developer has also stated in the DA that the Mosque will be at another site.
    The developer explains his intentions with regards to this cemetery – telegraph november 1st
    I believe I have also stated that for me the Environmental Issue are more important than the social issues. However, many in the Hawkesbury may differ to me.
    I don’t practise religion, so for me – I dont give a shit about it – all religion is as bad as each other – just listern to your rants – and thats why there are a hell of alot of people who practise NO RELIGION

    • Sue-the environmental reasons are great. But if they are the only issue in this case, why did you make comments like the following:

      “No-one wants whats going on in those areas, brought to other areas – including most moderate Muslims. No one wants the bullshit of cronulla or the recent garbage that happened in Sydney.”

      “I believe allowing this development will bring about social and cultural changes to the Hawkesbury Region that will greatly impact on the very reasons I choose to live in the Hawkesbury. This will just be the start of a New Hawkesbury that will resemble the changes that have taken place in Blacktown, Auburn, Lakemba, Bankstown”.

      Again, it sounds like you’re trying to use the Muslim factor to encourage other people to whom a fear and hatred of Muslims is primary, to support your cause. And if that’s the case, you really need to apologise for your actions.

      Because you can’t control hate and fear-you can just incite it. You go around telling people “If we allow the Muslims this cemetery-they’ll change our demographics, they’ll turn our suburb into Lakemba or Cronulla!” and then, whatever happens with the cemetery, those beliefs will remain.

      It’s called dog whistling-inciting the worst parts of our community, the most divisive, hateful aspects, in order to fulfil your own ends. Politicians do it all the time, and they’re just as shameful when they do. And Sue, no matter how good, and pure your intentions are, it doesn’t matter-because what you’re doing is encouraging fear and hatred of the different, which will last around a lot longer than this issue.

    • I believe I have also stated that for me the Environmental Issue are more important than the social issues

      The fact that the “social issues” are important to you at all is what we have a problem with here. Because so long as you make dog-whistle-politics style references to the Cronulla riots, and oblique references to “demographics”, it looks to me and to everyone else that all the other excuses you give about the environmental impact etc. are just that – excuses.

      Do you understand what I’m saying?

      You can’t simultaneously say that you don’t want a Muslim cemetery because it’ll turn Hawkesbury into a new Lakemba, and then turn around and say “oh no, I don’t really care that they’re Muslims – some of my best friends are Muslims! – I’m just worried about groundwater quality” It’s pretty obvious when you do that that you’re being dishonest about your motives.

      Thanks, I found the article about the newly-released Rookwood plots. If anyone’s interested can be found here. Turns out they were about to run out of Muslim graves in about 6 months, so there’s massive relief about that. So it looks like this story has a happy ending, for now, though no thanks to the bigots of Hawkesbury.

  22. JM – I don’t speak for the Hawkesbury or it’s people – Mindmadeup targeted me and has posted this post – I am not a spokes person from the community nor am I in a position to incite them in anyway, I was one person who made a comment on the Gazettes facebook page – I think I was number 52 out of about 70

    Next I knew, the Gazette had taken only part of what I had said and printed it in the above article, don’t know why they chose mine, there were many other posts and now I’m targeted by you guys and others across the net.

    There are hundreds and hundreds of objections in council on this DA – for many reason, but hey I’m the one singled out and targeted, yet my objections are majorly Environmental and I don’t give a shit about Religion or belong to denomination – gess, thanks you guys.

    Hawkesbury is a predominantly Christian Area – Really did they think for one moment that it would not be an issue for some here – Really

    And those Bogan Biggots of Hawkesbury – have also suggested a couple of other Locations in Hawkesbury with greatly less potential of the Huge Environmental impacts this site would have. Which again I state, “Is my major Concern”

    However, most feel if Hawkesbury people are burdened with the expence of it they should also have a right to benefit from it and feel it should be muli denominational, brought by the state and controlled by the NSW Cemeteries trust – not bad for bogan biggots.

      • It’s in an environmentally world heritage listed area, they want to wipe out 100 acres of known and protected koala habitat, it is solid sandstone, the plots will fill up with water when it rains, leaching into a protected wetland, the underground water source and pollute the last pristine river in the state. There are also no public service to the region where the site it.

    • feel it should be muli denominational, brought by the state and controlled by the NSW Cemeteries trust

      What on Earth are you talking about? Hawkesbury non-Muslim residents do not have a shortage of plots. Richmond, Pitt Town, Lower Portland and St Alban’s New General all have more than 5 years burial space available. The Muslims were going to be given the whole site – 10,000 plots – because they needed that many. They were specifically searching for Muslim burial sites because of the whole of Sydney was going to run out in 6 months. You yourself told me that they just got 6,000 plots at Rookwood reallocated to them, which gives us an idea of the magnitude of their shortage. Why would you insist that some of their 10,000 – that they desperately needed – be given to you, when the whole reason for the development was because of their shortage and when you’ve already got heaps of your own?

      And why are we even talking about this? It’s pretty obvious that this is just a distraction, you’ve made clear what your real motives are.

      don’t know why they chose mine [my quote]

      Really? Because I think it’s pretty clear. The sheer incoherence of you saying that a Muslim cemetery will turn Hawkesbury into a new Lakemba is proof enough that there’s some irrational bigotry behind that petition, and I think that’s newsworthy.

      and now I’m targeted by you guys and others across the net

      You know, I almost felt sorry for you, but then I thought: how dare you?

      You got targeted? Well Muslims get targeted every day, in hundreds of ways, because of comments just like yours. People like you are the reason that Muslims apparently can’t even bury their dead without copping bullshit from white supremacists and having petitions made up to stop them. How do you think that feels? Really, put yourself in their shoes. You’ve moved a new country – which is difficult enough on its own – and now you have neighbours who are so openly hostile towards you that they’ll even attack you for trying to bury your dead. How do you think that feels?!

      And the very fact that you are being sly about it and trying distract from your real motives with environment and infrastructure concerns makes me all the angrier.

      So I’m glad you’ve been targeted. I hope people Google your name and find this out about you for years to come. I only wish more people who make the kinds of comments you’ve made were targeted. And I hope that this sends a message to others, that Muslims are a part of our community, and that it is in fact your kind – bigots – who are not welcome here.

      • Nerdypants you just cant seem to get your facts right can you !
        This is a private land development – the Developer has NOT been “given” the land for this developement – they have purchased it ! And are stating that it is for a 10,000 plot cemetery for the Muslim Community Only.
        This is a property owner, no different to any property owner, looking to do a development which is NOT with the zoning for the land under planning laws.
        The development does not meet the objectives of SREP/SEPP44 Koala habitat
        The development does not meet the objectives of the area within SREP20
        The devlopment does not meet the objectives of the zone contained with hawkesbury LEP 2012
        The development constitues discrimination Under the NSW Discrimination Act 1977, Sec 7 Part 7, 1b
        We are all Governed by the laws as property owners, the Muslim community is no different and should not be treated any differently than another other property owner.

        This has nothing to do with religion or race!
        The same rules apply even to me as a Hawkesbury property owner in the same region.

    • Sue, we’re going around in circles here. I’m not asking you to speak for Hawksbury or for anyone else. You have said your concerns are the environmental impact, but if this is true, why did you make comments like the following:

      “No-one wants whats going on in those areas, brought to other areas – including most moderate Muslims. No one wants the bullshit of cronulla or the recent garbage that happened in Sydney.”

      “I believe allowing this development will bring about social and cultural changes to the Hawkesbury Region that will greatly impact on the very reasons I choose to live in the Hawkesbury. This will just be the start of a New Hawkesbury that will resemble the changes that have taken place in Blacktown, Auburn, Lakemba, Bankstown”.

      It doesn’t matter if a magazine emphasised one line over another-it’s still the line you stated. No one put those words into your mouth, you made them yourself. No one forced you to say those things, you chose to. Why? That’s the only thing I’ve been asking over and over again.

      • If a person puts in a submission in reference to a DA (development Application) they must include – The Reference Number, The development Address (location) and The Development is as stated on the Application (by the developer!)
        “Muslim Community Cemetery” is what this development has been Titled as BY THE DEVELOPER !
        I have only ever referred to it as it is titled and in that context and reference only !

        Is this really rocket science ?????

        • Sue, you’re ignoring the question. I am not asking what the developer, I am asking why you said these comments. I’ve not called you up on saying “This is an Islamic Cemetery” I have ONLY ever called you up on making these two comments.

          Let’s go again-
          “No-one wants whats going on in those areas, brought to other areas – including most moderate Muslims. No one wants the bullshit of cronulla or the recent garbage that happened in Sydney.”

          “I believe allowing this development will bring about social and cultural changes to the Hawkesbury Region that will greatly impact on the very reasons I choose to live in the Hawkesbury. This will just be the start of a New Hawkesbury that will resemble the changes that have taken place in Blacktown, Auburn, Lakemba, Bankstown”.

          This is not about what was on the forms. This is only about what your comments were and why you made them. Why is it so hard for you to answer why you made comments appearing to emphasising a fear of Muslims in stating a disagreement with this planned production?

      • Do you really think Muslims will all move in next door because there’s a cemetery nearby? Do you move to a house based on how close it is to a cemetery-because usually I find house prices don’t go up next to graveyards?

        What’s exactly going to happen to the “white christian” suburb (Good to have that distinguishing white colour-otherwsie we might think you’re okay with having asian Christians) by having Muslims buried there? What’s this disaster you are predicting and Sue is implying? What is it?

      • I believe I did answer your question JM 28th January 7.41pm

        The developer has stated in the Cemetery DA that the Mosque will be at another site
        So yes that indicates the Muslims will be moving in, as you put it.

        What Typhoon has stated is correct !

        But lets not get away from the Cemetery Development Application – this site is not suitable on an envirionmental level – The site is unsuitable ! for all the Environmental reason I have explained

        • So you’re fighting a Mosque and a cemtery now? Or is it just going to be one at a time? Does the Mosque have grave environmental concerns, or is it only a fear of demographic changes, and bringing in extremists which is of course the only thing Muslims who aren’t old friends of yours can be, right?

          This is becoming less and less “Environmental concerns with a hint of Islamaphobia” and more and more “General problem with Muslims, not counting the one person I know who is one, with a hint of environmental justification”

          Let me tell you a story Sue. There’s a guy here who posts occasionally who says he has a problem with Muslims. He says its an evil cult filled with fanatics, and apart from the Muslims he’s met who have been nice people, he’s sure they’re all extremists.

          Your feelings about Muslims sounds very similar:
          “I don’t have a problem with Muslims-I have a friend whose a moderate Muslim, but if any other Muslims come in they’ll bring extremists”

          Why can’t any other Muslim be accepted like your friend? Why can’t any other Muslim just want to be going about thier business? What do you think is going to happen? Terrorism? Forced conversion? Or is it just a case of you not wanting to see different people as you walk through the streets?

          How moderate does your friend have to be for all other Muslims to be immediatly assumed to be extremists? How far extreme does a Muslim need to be before you would consider them extremists?

  23. I did NOT start the petition ! Sorry cant take credit !
    NO – I don’t want the Landscape and the Environment to change in the Hawkesbury !
    NO – I don’t want 100 acres of Koala Habitat wiped out !
    NO – I don’t want our borewater contaminated !
    NO – I don’t want the last pristine river in the state contaminated !
    NO – I don’t want the protected wetland below it contaminated !
    NO – I don’t want further traffic congestion crossing Windsor bridge!
    NO – I don’t want an Environmentally Protected Area Compromised !
    NO – I don’t want to be finacially burdened with a development that has benefit for me !

    The only people inciting things are you !
    My girlfriend has read your crap and as a Muslim – she is disgusted – in you !
    You hide behind your stupid little names, like cowardly children !
    At least I stepped upto the plate in my “Own name” to address it and further explan !

    You are the people that are making it hard for Muslims to be accepted, with these kinds of rants !
    You have already proven you go off half cocked, not even knowing the full ins and outs !
    People in society like you are the real proplem !
    By your own admittance you target people like Muslims get targeted !
    You are no different or no better than others that target !
    you are a hypocrite !

    • You are the people that are making it hard for Muslims to be accepted, with these kinds of rants

      Are you delusional?! You have accused everyday law-abiding people, who just want to bury their loved ones according to their traditions in peace, of wanting to cause trouble in your neighbourhood comparable to the Cronulla riots. Have we done anything comparable? You said that if they have a cemetery there, then “whats going on in those areas” will be brought to your area. Aren’t we the ones trying to teach you how unbelievably rude and completely unfair that is? That just because these guys are Muslims, they’re responsible for everything any Muslim has ever done that was wrong?

      There’s a word for that – it’s called prejudice. Literally, to “pre judge” someone on the basis of their ethnic or religious affiliation. That’s what you have done. And that’s what we’re calling you on.

      And holy hell, you’re all over the web posting about this issue. How many hours have you spent on this, dedicated to victimising these poor people who you’ve never even met? What an incredibly overburdened knapsack of privilege you must be carrying have to do something like that, and then be able to convince yourself that you’re a victim when you get called on it. You are not the victim here. Everyday Muslims who have to live in a climate of hostility thanks to people like you are the victims. White people even who are sick of the tension and discord are the victims. Screw you.

      • I am all over the web attacking Muslims ???? Don’t think so !! I have promoted the environmental issues and concerns also the final planning submission date expiry – I have only done this on facebook on my own page, and both of the petition pages.
        I have not even mentioned Muslim in any other context than what the developer has stated the development as on the DA and in that reference and context only !! The address of the development and the DA reference number must be on the submission, along with what the Development title is Listed by the Applicant on the application – which is required by council for ANY submission on ANY DA

        • Sue: God damn that’s some industrial-strength cognitive dissonance you’ve got going on there. Here, let me ask you a “yes” or “no” question to see if we can break through it.

          Do you think it was fair of you to compare everyday people visiting their deceased loved ones to the Cronulla rioters?

          Yes or no.

        • Sarah: How do you know I’m not Oprah? o.O

          (Fair cop, though in my defence, I’m only doing it because Sue is being about as honest as Armstrong was.)

        • Eek. I think the real question is, how did you not realise I was making a joke?

          I don’t support muslims at all, why they need their own cemetary and can’t be lke other immigrants is just another reason not to let them in to begin with.

          You mean like the Catholic immigrants? Who are buried in specially consecrated ground, set aside for their exclusive use and separated from the rest of us?

        • Sarah: Hrm. It looks to me like you’re having difficulty giving a logically consistent answer to the question about Catholic burials I asked you, and so now you’re trying to distract from that by personally attacking me. Awkward.

  24. And neither do Hawkesbury Muslims have a plot shotage in the Hawkesbury – we only have 146 Muslims here – they are most welcome in our Hawkesbury cemeteries !

  25. so now you pull down your post – is that to adjust your text again and repost – more changing and manipulation of what you have said – Wow what power you have!

    Hypocrites

  26. Answer the question Sue. Do you think it was fair of you to compare everyday people visiting their deceased loved ones to the Cronulla rioters?

    • Sarah:

      I’ll answer it for her : because we don’t want muslims here. Is that ok?

      I don’t know – is that okay with you Sue? Has Sarah characterised your feelings about the matter correctly?

      I also suspect that’s how she feels, but I don’t to answer for her because, well, that would be disrespectful.

      You seem like the type of girl that …

      lol 🙂 If you could tell that much about a person from their gravitar, then you would be the greatest psychoanalyst that ever lived! … Do you often think of yourself that way?

      • Still got no counter-argument for the Catholic burials thing, huh? Perhaps you should stop distracting yourself by throwing petty insults my way and try thinking about why that is.

        • Sue: Yes I know you answered it. This comment was directed at Sarah, who has since been deleted.

          Though you still haven’t another question of mine: Do you think it was fair of you to compare everyday people visiting their deceased loved ones to the Cronulla riots?

      • If my girl friend of 40 yrs and her family are Muslim, then it stands to reason that we already have Muslims here….. don’t you think ….
        I think you a bit thick Nerdypants
        and you call me the bogan !

    • I don’t believe I did that or have done that with what I have said or in the context that I have said it.
      It is “you” who is trying to take it out of its context, and get a reaction
      You must be very young

      • Okay, the context we have taken is wrong. That what did you mean by these statement, and why did you make them:

        ““No-one wants whats going on in those areas, brought to other areas – including most moderate Muslims. No one wants the bullshit of cronulla or the recent garbage that happened in Sydney.”

        “I believe allowing this development will bring about social and cultural changes to the Hawkesbury Region that will greatly impact on the very reasons I choose to live in the Hawkesbury. This will just be the start of a New Hawkesbury that will resemble the changes that have taken place in Blacktown, Auburn, Lakemba, Bankstown”.

        It’s hard to kinda accept that we are getting the wrong meaning of your statements and taking these comments out of context when you are just trying to ignore that you ever made them, making them look like something you regretted you said, rather than well thought out statements.

        And you are looking like you are dodging them. Whenever asked you say what soemone else said, or how you think someone else feels. No one is asking for that. You’ve made this comments-explaining them is what we are asking for , because as I’ve said, I don’t see how these comments can mean anyhing apart from: “Muslims scare me, apart from my friend, and she’s a special case” or “I don’t mind Muslims, but I get more support when I’m encouraging anti-Muslim groups, so I say things like that to keep them involved”

        But I could be wrong. You could have perfectful not bigoted, nonmanipulative reasons to make those above comments. But I’ll never know that if you never actually explain why you made these comments.

        • Sorry, it got lost. I found your original comment and responded to it.

          Essentially I’m saying, stating you want to stop people of a certain religion entering your suburb because you’re worried they’ll bring social problems, or extremism (In other words, blaming everyone for the acts of the few) is no different from stating you want to discourage a person of a different race from entering your suburb because they may bring social problems. In both cases you are punishing the majority for the crimes of the few. Would you be doing this for any other group in society, or only Muslims (You did mention something about moderate races that I think deserves elaborating upon)?

          All religions, as you’ve said, have extremists. Are we going ban all religions from your suburb because of it?
          All belief systems have extremists. There are extremist athiests, and many poilitical groups with extremists (Including many otherwise moderate political groups). Are we going to ban all believers of an ything from your suburb because of it?
          All people may bring social problems. You don’t know when someone moves in whether they will have drug problems, get into fights, or drink drive. Are we going to ban all people because of that?

          You don’t know when someone moves into your area whether they’re going to be nice, or they’re going to destroy your life. You never do. But previously, you have taken them on trust. But for some reason, with Muslims, despite having a moderate Muslim friend, your assumption is that they will cause social problems. Why? In terms of general crime and social problem, males in general (Caucasian males in particular due to high population numbers) is the largest perpetrator of crime, violent and non violent, domestic abuse, alcohol abuse-why aren’t you concerned about social problems males in general are bringing in, and giving Muslims the benefit of the doubt?

          And considering you’re already stating concern for a Mosque which presumably will not have huge environmental concerns attached with it, I’ve got to wonder, what if a Muslim wanted to buy a house in your neighbourhood and move in. Would you be calling for all private land sales to be restricted to people of particular faiths, or just accept that demographics change? That’s what they do.

    • Now you just manipulating, because that is not what I did at all.
      Your not a very educated person are you Nerdypants. very low level of maturity

  27. Typhoon’s tl;dr “I don’t like Muslims”

    Tough luck, Typhoon. They are tax-payers and citizens, they have just as much right to be here and have services as anyone else. That’s the Australian law. And if you can’t respect that, then maybe YOU should leave.

  28. “The extra plots does not mean directly more migrants, but you can not tell me that more arn’t going to come and move in if it all gets approval.”

    Yes I can. Funnily enough cemeteries are not magnets for new migrants groups. Do you know of anyone who has said: “Well, I better move so I can be closer to that cemetery”? Anyone at all?

    “These people do not care so much about this development, they want to expand their comunity by any means possible,”

    How exactly does a community expand by burying their dead? Zombies aren’t real-we tend not to make babies at funerals. Do you think that either:
    a) Muslims from all over the world will come to live next to the cemetery, or
    b) Muslims attending funerals will convert everyone nearby afterwards.

    ” and in all ways. If they can get an inch here they will take it, gets knocked back they try something else.”

    See-this is what I was pointing out to Sue. It doesn’t matter whether the cemetery is built or not. This attitude towards Muslims, that they are invading, that they need to be constantly feared, mistrusted and fought, otherwise they will take over the country will live on, whether the cemetery is built or not. And that sort of attitude will come around to hurt the Muslim friends of hers, because posters like the above is not going to distinguish, as Sue does, between Muslims she’s met, and those she hasn’t.

    • Dead people don’t pay rates in the Hawkesbury – this Hawkesbury people do !
      This is not rookwood we are talking about or a state owned entity.

      What posters are you talking about JM ?

      Extreme fundamentist Muslims in Australia and Sydney are what is hurting my friend and her family ! Thats what they don’t want here !
      And that is what I have been referring to, in that context.

      • “What posters are you talking about JM ? ”

        It was a poster who was since deleted. Her comment was that if we give Muslims an inch they will take it, and if they fail they will try somehwere else.

        “Extreme fundamentist Muslims in Australia and Sydney are what is hurting my friend and her family ! Thats what they don’t want here !
        And that is what I have been referring to, in that context.”

        So, just to be clear, it’s worth punishing all Muslims to ensure the “extremists” ones don’t turn up, is that right?

        Do you think the supporters of your campaign, including people who made the following comments:
        “I don’t like Muslims”
        “If they can get an inch here they will take it, gets knocked back they try something else.”

        Do you think those supporters who have been unboldened by your phrases will take the time to get to know all future Muslims, to see whether they are moderates, like your friend, or extremist Muslims? I don’t think this is going to happen.
        I mean, think about it. You haven’t distinguished between moderates and extremists. You’ve already assumed that if by burying their dead, your suburb will be have extremists invade, when they could just be moderates. Most Muslims are.

        Do you realise now if this had only been an environmental campaign, you would not be featured here, and no one would be complaining. But it isn’t. It’s continuing to spread the fear of Muslims as bringing in problems.

        Incidentally, friends are great and everything, but you do have a problem with Muslims if your thinking is “If Muslims come generally, they’ll bring problems”

        • JM – I don’t have a campaign to have supporters – I am just one person who made a facebook comment, and have been labled by theantibogan as a major player – this I find laughable.

          I don’t mind being feature here for 2 reason
          1. This has greatly promoted this particular development and the major environmental issue !
          2. It has opened up the discussion of the social sides, and these things seriously need discussion !.

          I have taken on board all your points, and yes they are valid, but its not a perfect world we live in, also there are other valid points.
          The extreme fundamentalist Muslim is not helping when all Australians see things on National TV like the recent Sydney Riots, Cronulla, constant shootings, gang rapes on Australian girls for being Australian, and all the other current media from overseas. Eygyt, Pakastan, India, Bali etc.
          No i don’t believe that this is the behavour and thinking of most moderate Muslims, But you can’t denie that these elements are there, and greatly within this religion, and world wide.

          Re;- but you do have a problem with Muslims if your thinking is “If Muslims come generally, they’ll bring problems”
          Given my above comments, your statement is what most if not all Australians think, and as I have pointed out, even some moderate Muslims.
          And really, Why wouldn’t they think or believe that !- look at the media and the recent Sydney Riots.

          The only people that can fix and address these problems of extreme fundamentalist Muslims in Australia is the Muslim community itself and the Islamic Council of Australia. I know my girlfriends family tried, to no avail.

  29. mindmadeup: May I make a request? Would you please update the main part of the post to include the quotes from Sue Guymer on Jan 27? I mean specifically these quotes:

    This will just be the start of a New Hawkesbury that will resemble the changes that have taken place in Blacktown, Auburn, Lakemba, Bankstown

    No-one wants whats going on in those areas, brought to other areas – including most moderate Muslims. No one wants the bullshit of cronulla or the recent garbage that happened in Sydney.

    My reason for asking is that this thread is really long, and I want people to be able to find this information about her easily.

    You are currently on the first page of Google hits for her name plus some keywords. Sue has been very active in this campaign online; I wouldn’t be surprised if she’s the major force keeping the campaign going. But she has also been very adept at hiding her real motives. The quotes above are the rare occasions where she slips up. I think it’s important that people involved be able to find out what she’s really all about, behind that “concerned citizen” facade. I wouldn’t want the public servants who have to make decisions about this wasting more time than they have to dealing with her, and I think the community groups who have to defend themselves against her spurious objections would find it useful to know as well.

    So my request is that you add a section to the original post saying something like:

    Update (30 Jan): Sue Guymer joined us in the comments section, and here’s what she had to say about those “social and cultural changes”: …

    … and then quote her directly where she talks about “New Hawkesbury” and compares the gravesite visitors to the Cronulla riots.

      • I like how you simply go back to the beginning – something which has already been disgussed and explained – Like I said before before …..

        “The only people inciting things are people like you ! (Mindmadeup & Nerdypants)
        My girlfriend has read your crap and as a Muslim – she is disgusted – in you !

        You hide behind your stupid little names, like cowardly children !
        At least I stepped upto the plate in my “Own name” to address it and further explan !

        You are the kind of people that are making it hard for Muslims to be accepted, with these kinds of rants !
        You have already proven you go off half cocked, not even knowing the full ins and outs !
        People in society like you are the real proplem !

        By your own admittance you target people like Muslims get targeted ! Your words of what you do at theantibogan !

        You are no different or no better than others that target !
        You are a hypocrite !
        And cowards

        Thanks for this now being Google Number 1 with regards to my name – Helps getting the Environmental Issue out there.

        It you think Others arn’t smart enough to read all of this post and all of the comments, then I don’t think you give other intellegent people Muslim and non-Muslim, enough credit !

        • If there’s nothing wrong with what you said – that stuff about “New Lakemba” and the Cronulla rioters – then you should be fine with having it quoted and prominently associated with your name.

        • There is nothing wrong with what I have said in the context I have said it !
          Which I might add – Is not how it is depicted at the top or by you guys.
          I have no problem with what I have said in this feed, or the context I have said it in ! Which is in the feed – And people will read it, in its intended context !
          Some may agree with it, some might not.
          The beauty of democracy !

          Like I said:
          “It you think Others arn’t smart enough to read all of this post and all of the comments, then I don’t think you give other intellegent people Muslim and non-Muslim, enough credit” !

    • This is actually laughable…… I am hardly a major force behind this in the Hawkesbury LOL – you got all that from a post on The Gazette facebook page – my one post – number 52 out of about 70 posts on that page 2 months ago …….

      Other than that – I have only posted the details for the planning submission deadline expires and the Reason I object – Environmental one on planning !

      You are a real wanker Nerdypants …. LMAO

      I can’t wait for everyone to read your crap – say’s more about you and mindmadeup than it say’s about me.

      LMAO

      • I am hardly a major force behind this in the Hawkesbury LOL

        I don’t know how “major” a force you are, by do know that you have been very active on this topic online, and I do know that you work in media, at a local lifestyle magazine called the Hawkesbury District Independent (HDI). But honestly, even if you were just some random, you still deserve to be called out on your comments.

        I have only posted the details for the planning submission deadline expires and the Reason I object – Environmental one on planning !

        No, you haven’t. You have also let slip that you think allowing a cemetery will turn your neighbourhood into a New Lakemba, and made some pretty unfair comparisons to the Cronulla riots. As quoted above. And you are still refusing to acknowledge that error, which is why you’re getting slammed for it. See how that works?

        • LMAO – what a wanker – be sure to thank Mindmadeup
          Again, they all will see what I said in its context
          LMAO

  30. There is nothing wrong with what I have said in the context I have said it ! Which I might add – Is not how it is depicted at the top or by you guys.

    There is no “context” that makes it okay to compare mourning families to rioters on the basis of their ethnicity alone. There is no “context” that equates building a cemetery that’s going to service the whole of Sydney to creating a “New Lakemba” (I don’t even…). Don’t lie to yourself that there is.

  31. You know Sue, instead of getting all butthurt about this, why don’t think about what it’s like to be a minority and to have a thousand little Sue Guymers doing this kind of thing to you every day? Likening your family and friends to rioters and criminals without a second thought. Automatically getting suspicious whenever you build a shop or a cemetery or a church somewhere, accusing you of trying to take over the neighbourhood. Making sly remarks about how they don’t want you moving to their neighbourhood because of what you might do to the “demographics”. How would you feel? Pretty shithouse, I imagine.

    • Wow Sue. Personal abuse and the old, tired and ineffective cop out of being taken out of context. You really are a credibility free zone. Any judgements readers make from comments here are going to be about you and your sad reliance on personal abuse and bigoted statements about Cronulla, which you haven’t even got the courage to stand by. I suspect everyone else living in your nice whitebread wilderness is there to escape the likes of you.

        • I believe I did address in the context to JM 28th January 7.41pm

          No you didn’t. Not only did you not address it in your comment of 28th Jan 7:41pm, you lied about what you had said in that very comment.

          On 28 Jan at 7:14pm, you claimed that you never mentioned Muslims in any other context except the title and address of the DA. You wrote:
          I have not mentioned Muslim in any other context than what the developer has stated the development as on the DA and in that reference and context only !! Theaddress of the development and the DA reference number must be on the submission
          But that’s not true, because 1 month ago, you submitted a comment to the Planning Alerts website saying that the cemetery

          will just be the start of a New Hawkesbury that will resemble the changes that have taken place in Blacktown, Auburn, Lakemba, Bankstown etc

          and encouraged others who

          wish to protect the Hawkesbury from these types of social and cultural changes … to stand up now and say it

          So you have used the fact that it’s a specifically Muslim development as an argument against it. And you did it in the slimiest way possible: by fear-mongering about its effects (a “New Lakemba”? Seriously??), and by dog-whistling about it.

      • Dogmatic – of the nature of – authoritatively laid down, stated as indisputable
        Hope this helps, also the correct word and spelling helps
        Just another thing you have got Wrong – What can I say – it’s normal for you !
        And your gender is of no interest to me

  32. Sue: Well, it looks like you’ve got nothing left to say except personal insults, so I’m going to leave it at that. I hope once you calm down a bit you’ll have a chance to reflect on this.

    • Enter “Sue Guymer hawkesbury” on Google. First hit: your job at Hawkesbury District Independent. Second hit: this blog. I’d be anything but calm if I were you.

  33. have you got the right Sue Guymer – there’s a few of us !
    Don’t really care – Thank you heaps for the exposure on this Development !

  34. Sue. As a civil engineer with several years experience working in areas that draw water from the ground level, and two recently buried relatives, I am able to confirm to you that you don’t need to be worried about medical impacts of a cemetery. We don’t just chuck our dead people in a home made pine box and chuck it in the ground. All coffins in Australia that contain flesh are required to be fully sealed. This means that you don’t have to worry about borewater contaminated, last pristine river in the state contaminated (note: note even close to true, I keep telling you people, make up better lies, no one believes you if you say 99.9% of people agree with me), protected wetland below it contaminated or an Environmentally Protected Area Compromised.

    So, now we have removed the idea that this should be stopped on medical terms. Your other concerns seem to relate to the town planing issues.

    1: “I don’t want to be finacially burdened with a development that has benefit for me!”
    I don’t want my tax dollars to go to building a road in Victoria or New South Wales. I don’t want my tax dollars spent on funding for religious organisations that don’t accept gay marriage. The government at all levels uses all our money for a lot of things that we don’t like, don’t want or doesn’t benefit us in any way. If you want to go to a place where this doesn’t happen, your limited to maybe Somalia, perhaps some of the pacific islands?

    2 I don’t want further traffic congestion crossing Windsor bridge!
    Phhhht, it is estimated that there would be a funeral there every ten days. As a civil engineer, this amount of added traffic is so low, it would barley register on traffic flow simulations.

    3 I don’t want 100 acres of Koala Habitat wiped out !
    I agree with you here, however, do you have any evidence that the plots will not be revegetated in such a way as to allow for re-population by koalas? Have to talked to your council about amending the council building codes to ensure continued compatibility with koala habitat. (Also, koala doesn’t have a capital.)

    4 I don’t want the Landscape and the Environment to change in the Hawkesbury!
    See post 1

    So, unless you are able to present evidence that they plan to cut and fill the entire field and never plant another tree on it, none of these arguments hold any weight.

    However, if you are making the argument that you have stated that you don’t want the social changes, there is enough evidence both on this website and probably on this page to educate you on this fact. Also not a valid argument against this development. If we need to keep anyone out that’s messing up our culture, it is those god dam Dutchmen, walking around in their wooden shoes, thinking that they own the place. Join my facebook group, KICK OUT ALL DUTCHMEN, (and Belgians to be safe)

    • Muslim Burial does not have a coffan – and bodys are stacked – this is why Rookwood gave the Muslims 6000 “double depth” plots.
      1. This is a private development application – NOT a State Gov. Project
      2. 450 funerals a year – Look at developers intentions and objectives Telegraph 1stt Nov 2012
      3. SREP44 or SEPP44 was done for this reason “Packer Rd, Blaxlands Ridge” – 3 species of known Koala Habitat has been indentified, in developers own flora and fauna report, Entire block is being cleared for graves nearly 100 acres.
      4. Evidence is in the DA application and supporting documents – Sujest a visit to Council should help you out with that.

      It does Happen – Hope this helps

    • I note you have said that you are a Civil engineer

      I would like to point out then, that the entire site is also “Solid Sandstone” and “Fissure Sandstone at that”
      The site is ontop of a ridge and has a protected Wetland below it.
      Also, this particular development is 10,000 plots
      On top of the 6000 given to the Muslim Community by the state Gov at rookwood.

      • So tell me Sue Guymer, if you are such an “honest broker” and only concerned with environmental and planning matters, what the fuck are you doing cavorting with the Facebook racist scum?

        We tend to judge people by the company they keep. So do our readers. In your case you reached the bottom of the pond.

        That post was made on a page which defames and attempts to humiliate anti-racists. Many of its posts are defamation of people only peripherally connected with our activities.

        • Please note the date
          I was contacted via facebook PM, after being targeted by theantibogan word press.
          I was told to look at a facebook page Exposing-theantibogan wordpress – so I did !
          This was a post by Morgan Smith as stated above – I had alook at this post and Mr Majeed’s page !
          I sugest everyone – Muslimand non-Muslim go and have a look at those posts

          I’m sure NOT ANY AUSTRALIAN WOULD DISAGREE WITH MY COMMENT !

          Have I been back to any of those pages – NO – NOT INTERESTED !

        • So who contacted you from there? And having looked at the page you would have had to “like” it before you could comment.

          How do we know you are not still a member? Are you aware that page has actionable defamatory content on it?

          Are you aware that an aggrieved party is in the process of taking action against it? Would you like your name to be flagged as part of a defamation action?

        • No you don’t have to like the page if commenting on a post
          No I have NOT liked the page or am I a member of it.! Nor was I even aware of this pages existence, until your targeting of me !
          You sound to a bit of paranoia , mindmadeup – is Exposing theantibogan group a bit of a worry for ?
          I can’t see how any legal actions could be taken against me for my comment on on a very disgusting post by someone else !

          Flag my name away …. isn’t that what you have already done and been doing ?
          That might actually bring about exposing you ! and the antibogan !

        • No you don’t have to like the page if commenting on a post

          But you saw fit to comment even though commenting on a site like that will do nothing to remove that group.

          The number of groups like the one you commented adversely on is miniscule. The number of anti-Muslim hate groups is legion.

          You sound to a bit of paranoia , mindmadeup – is Exposing theantibogan group a bit of a worry for ?

          No because they are defamatory criminals. Crims have never scared us.

          I can’t see how any legal actions could be taken against me for my comment on on a very disgusting post by someone else !

          Your name is on that page as a poster. You are not criticising them or trolling. Therefore people could reasonably conclude that you support that page.

          That might actually bring about exposing you ! and the antibogan !

          Highly unlikely. 🙂

        • What ever….. bla bla bla
          I don’t think people are that dumb to conclude what you say.
          Unlike you, I don’t take other intellegent people- Adults and treat them like they don’t have brains to work it out for themselves.

        • Bring it on – NOTHING to expose, haven’t you worked that out yet ?

          BRING IT ON !!!!!!!!!

          I think smart people are already starting to work you out !

        • LOL
          So you really are worried !
          I’ll produce it to the Laywers !

          So – Exposing – theantibogan facebook page is a real treat to you !

          I hope EVERYONE goes and checks out that page !

      • It being sandstone is really not that big of an issue, it raises some additional challenges, but is not a deal braker.

        So it’s private, so you are not actually paying for it to be built, and worst case scenario, the council is making a MINOR contribution to the construction of the road. Most realistic situation is that the developer will have to pay to pave the road.

        The 10000 plots number is not that important for environmental concerns, the 100 acres is. Are they building the entire thing in a single go, are they not revegetating the area? I would be surprised beyond belief if they are not, they would have to largely violate the Threatened Species Conservation Act and SEPP44, in which case they are criminals and will not get the site approved.

        Having developed a large scale development in an area of similar size and higher density in an area with the largest koala pop in QLD and are protect to high heaven, Building this in such a way as to have minimal impact on koalas is not only trivial, it would be more of the more efficient ways to do it. Koalas don’t need high density trees, but large areas of trees. This makes it easy to revegetate for full rehabituation.

        It does not mater that they don’t use coffins, required by law to be in body bags, which are then regulated so that they don’t spill out.

        Ok, lets use the larger estimate of 450 funerals a year, still such a small added amount of traffic, still barley registering as a huge traffic increase.

        I don’t feel like doing the work for you, and I am taking the position that if this is approved, it will be accordance with the law, so when you claim otherwise, please present evidence.

    • Sorry to pull you up on this, but in regards to burials in the Muslim sections the following usually occurs. The body is washed and placed in a shroud, then placed into the ground directly on the floor of the grave, a rectangular wooden box is placed over the body and the roof of this box is angled up, in other words one side of the length of the box is at say 30 cm the opposite at 90 cm, this is the make sure the weight of sand does not collapse the box from above for longer than a conventional flat roofed coffin structure. My experience is only from being a grave digger at Karrakatta Cemetery in Perth Western Australia, and their is no requirement for the body to be in a bag unless it is ordered for bio safety reasons such as an easily transmitted virus or blood borne disease that survives the hosts death.

  35. It Does Happen – I must say it is freshing to have some intelligence added to this blog.
    Again, I suggest you go to Hawkesbury Council and view the documents.
    The site is also very remote, within a Wilderness Region, also extreamly high bushfire area. There is not power, no phones, no mobile service, no town sewage, no public services Rail, buses etc
    the 450 figure is only depicting burial number and not included are attendence numbers for burial and ongoing visitation ontop.
    Normally in an area with infrastructures, this might not be an issue.
    But currently Windsor bridge and congestion issues are before the NSW State Government now, because current congestion is already an issue, without this development or any other development even further compounding to the existing problems.

  36. No body bags will be used – that would not be part of Muslim Burial ritual.
    The sandstone plots will fill like buckets – overflow of this will got straight into a protected wetland. Whats left in water wise in the plot with the decaying body, will leach through “Fissure Sandstone” into the ground water (our bore water, for our homes and property)

    I don’t want to drink this, wash in this, wash my cloths in this or give this to any of my animals. Thanks, but no thanks !

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